Emilia A Leese & Eva Charalambides
Emilia A Leese & Eva Charalambides
Fri, 6/4 8:26PM • 52:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
vegan, people, book, vegans, bit, non vegan, point, realise, eva, reading, veganism, opportunity, conversation, question, learning, idea, feel, hear, absolutely, talk
SPEAKERS
Jim Moore, Eva Charalambides, Emilia Leese
Jim Moore 00:16
Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans, you're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric. And this week is no different. This week, I got to sit down with the authors of think like a vegan. That's Amelia lease and Eva Carolyn beetus think like a vegan is a book this really a collection of essays that focus on vegan ethics, everything from intersectionality and some of the more challenging discussion points that us in the vegan community often have with each other but also some of those debates that that people new to veganism often find themselves in and on you know, can often find themselves ill equipped to answer you know, I think is as Amelia and Eva put it far better than me. You know, when we when we enter the world of veganism often we have a narrow viewpoint from you know, the perspective at which we entered it might be that, you know, we're, we're particularly well versed from a health angle, or we really understand the ethics around non human animals and working towards total animal liberation. It might be that, you know, we're very environmentally focused, but often you know, we find ourselves being quizzed or perhaps not even as strongly as quiz maybe maybe just just asked to almost be the spokesperson for for veganism bio non vegan friends and and I think the way I'd put it I'm not sure Amelia and Eva would but we'll find out in the conversation. But I'd always put things like a vegan is kind of like a survival guide if you like or at least a really good grounding to help you navigate some of those conversations. And you know, ultimately, I suppose Yes, influence people to some extent, but but navigate those waters calmly with your with your non vegan friends and family, as well as you know, perhaps within the community itself. So as you can see, I'm probably not as well versed Well, I'm definitely not as as to talk about the book as ever, and, and Emilia so without further ado, here's a conversation between me, Amelia and Eva, the authors of things like a vegan
Emilia Leese 02:56
so let's see, I went vegan in 2013. And basically, the reason I went vegan was the the reason and actually I talked about this in the book is is realising that dairy milk you you need the cows to give birth because they are mammals like us. And without the birth, you can't have lactation. So and I don't know why it took me until I was 43 to figure that out, but there you go. It did. And, and, and I can tell you exactly I was running on Hampstead Heath, and I realised that and I basically stopped in my tracks and I was like, right, okay, vegan now. So,
Jim Moore 03:52
so was it legit literally, you just had this luck epiphany. I mean, you imagine you must have been like reading some stuff or listening to some stuff on the run up to it that was sowing seeds or not, was it just like a?
Emilia Leese 04:04
No, no, no, you're you're right, you're right. You know, I was I was reading a few things here and there. And that got me thinking and so you know, so there was that. But it wasn't something that I was super focused on or like, lots of reading. But yeah, it was I had I think I had seen a poster or something I have to say. And I was like, wait, what cows What? And and that that really did it but it wasn't like something that I had been thinking about for a long time. And that then, oh, finally it dropped in but it was it was a lot simpler in a way.
Jim Moore 04:56
the dairy industry has been incredibly clever at For some reason, creating that dissonance in our minds, I remember having exactly the same epiphany and then thinking, How did I not quite realise that it's quite, it's quite obvious when you think about it, but not at the time. Exactly. About You, Eva, be great to hear a little bit of your, your journey.
Eva Charalambides 05:23
For sure, well, I think cows in this whole conversation will be 3343 here because I was I was a vegetarian for about seven, eight years. And a large part of that was health and kind of more of the personal and I like to say selfish choices I was looking for an ends to means but as soon as somebody pointed out that cows don't just make milk all the time. I was like, What? So if I'm, you know, I'm gonna date myself a bit, but it was probably I want to say the time I was very active on Tumblr, it was towards the end of 2014, I was doing a lot of like food blogging, and I was in that world. And it really just took somebody being like, yeah, cows don't always make milk. That doesn't make sense. And I was like, hold on, if I'm already not doing everything else, how easy will it be for me to transition once I know now that this is an ethical choice, and this is something I could be doing for animals. So it was quite quick as well once that that information was presented to me.
06:25
And how easy was that, that final step for you?
Eva Charalambides 06:29
exceedingly simple, I was lucky because I moved out shortly thereafter in 2015. And it was like my first opportunity to be like, I've got my own space, I can fill my own fridge, I can buy my own shampoo. So now there's absolutely nothing in my way. I'm very, very easy and then very shortly after that again in 2016 I began working in the vegan world I got to have vegan on my business card and I like joined this vegan bubble and it was vegan all the time. Which has influenced this book and everything else.
Jim Moore 07:03
Absolutely. For you it was it was equally once you've made that logical connection as simple step or or did you find actually that there's a whole heap of learning for me to do here?
Emilia Leese 07:16
Um, it was a relatively simple step. Because I was like, Okay, well, I'm not you know, this this is what I'm going to do. It was it was a bit more difficult navigating with my partner but that worked out in the end. But there was lots of learning in any event because I'm just getting better at reading labels especially in the beginning, you know, where you just sort of like wait a second Oh, I gotta read this labour because Okay, yes, these are crackers. But there's animal products in the crackers. Why is their animal product product in the cracker? Okay, you know, so so you start realising that and then you're like, Oh, okay. So now I do this, this is what I do now. Okay, fine. So, so yeah, definitely there was a bit of you know, learning about different just different recipes, different substitutes for baking and that sort of thing very practical things. There was a lot of that for sure. And then and then also reading reading the material on the ethics and reading the philosophy and that was that was very important because ultimately, that really is that is what made me understand the veganism as a as a full picture. So it wasn't just my it was yes of course it's my day to day but it's my mindset like how do I fit what does this day today mean? In in a bigger context, what does it mean and what am I really trying to do? So those are the those are the kinds of things that that I really got got interested in as well as the practical stuff of reading and finding out and you know, like I didn't know about additives and things like that but just because my diet before didn't really consist of a lot of stuff that would have additives I mean, you know, like you know, like crisps and things like that absolutely. But you know, it wasn't it wasn't like a huge huge portion of what I what I ate so I was able to learn about that relatively quickly and then you know, the reading of all the philosophy and the ethics that took a little bit more time but that's never ending we're always learning aren't we?
Jim Moore 09:39
Yeah that that side of things Absolutely. Like you know, on Bernie for years in but in that four years, every day feels like another kind of lesson particularly when you start to get into it and I cover this a little bit in the book I'm probably jumping ahead we'll come back to this subject as at some point but the, you know, when you start to look at things with a sort of internet intersectional lens and use thought to see things that how they interconnect, then you open up, you know, Pandora's box when it comes to comes to learning and sort of self education. But we'll pause that one. Because I think you cover that in a very astutely in the book. So we'll, we'll cut, we'll come on to it. I'm interested to find out like, what, what sort of communities that you kind of gathered around you at those times? Was there a community waiting for you both? It sounds even a little bit like that you've you found one through work, etc. But was there kind of a broader community that welcomed you in early on? Or did you feel quite alone at the beginning?
Eva Charalambides 10:37
Good question. I remember seeking out a lot of internet connections. So the Facebook groups, like I said, Tumblr, kind of finding people who were in the same mindset and connecting with them, you know, whether that was sharing the recipe, or putting out a call for like, the best running shoes I can find with like water based glue. I found a lot of people helpful that way. But it did take a while until I had, like vegans around me that I could share dinner with, or, you know, go to the vegan festivals with that took a lot more time. And it was through work. And it was through being hired into a new company and hiring vegans all the time, and just meeting new vegans every day, and pretending like nobody in the world wasn't vegan for like my eight hours a day, which was really fun. Um, yeah, but I think it was, you know, a small challenge to find the vegans like, in my neighbourhood around me, because it felt like, at that time, especially, it was still very much the start of that kind of green wave where we're plant based and eco. And like, all of those kind of buzzwords were just kind of new and super foods. And a lot of people are like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I eat like that. But I'm not a vegan. or something along those lines. So to find, like, you know, especially ethical vegans, people who had the animals in mind, and we're talking about the issues, apart from the menus at restaurants and stuff like that took a little more time.
Jim Moore 12:07
Yeah, 100% 100%? How about how about for you, me? Was there? Was there a community around you?
Emilia Leese 12:15
This? It's a really good question. So I've been thinking about it. Well, well, if I was talking, and I have to say, you know, so this was 2013. And for me, at that time, Instagram was still relatively new. And that was really helpful. To me. And, and then yes, and Facebook groups and things like that. But I made a lot of new friends. And, and with my old friends, it was fine, because I was like, hey, there's this new place, you want to go there? Or, you know, so so that, but it wasn't, but I didn't have an immediate go to person, let's say. But that didn't even take, I was very lucky, I have to say, because I found some really made some really amazing connections from Instagram, and with people who are some of my closest friends now. So I have to, you know, people complain sometimes about social media and about Instagram, but a lot of times it's how you manage to relate to it, and how to use it. And I managed to find amazing people. And for that I'm completely thankful that it exists because I don't think I would have otherwise found lots of people. I mean, especially, you know, yeah, I just there was nobody immediately around me. Now there's more, and, you know, there's, you know, neighbours, and so on who are vegan, but, but then, but then No, not so much. That's what I knew, obviously. And so yeah, it was it was tricky, but I got lucky, I got lucky.
Jim Moore 14:13
Just as we're there, I'd like to explore this particular point around social media, because it's often something that I go back and forth with and so on. And when we're talking about communities, I think it's quite an interesting thing to, to sort of discuss and I'd love to get your, your, your viewpoints on it. As people who've been in the vegan community for a few years now, and obviously have built communities online and met, met plenty of folks through that. Do you see there being any kind of danger to this kind of the creation of a sort of vegan bubble if you like, so we sort of see more of what we were interested in. And we can we can I worry anyway, maybe you'll correct me on this. I worry that we can get a little bit lulled into the sense that actually think, you know, things are progressing a lot faster than then than we then they actually are, you know, we've there's new Ben and Jerry's ice cream, so we must have one, you know, that kind of that kind of mindset. And, and we're not we're missing perhaps some of the opportunity to push on from a, you know, an ethical standpoint from whereas I think if I went back and you know, think about people that I can think about somebody I know, you may have heard of called Fiona Oaks, who's, she's been vegan for 50 odd years. And, you know, since she was three, and I think about the folks in that period, I wonder if they were, they were more more active, you know, in the, in the sort of, you know, whether it be whether it be directly protesting or attending, you know, vigils or saves, or, you know, these kind of things, I wonder whether we sort of switch off from it a little bit because of social media, because, you know, it's all a bit comfortable. So long, rambling, sort of question more of a more of a muse, but I would love to get your perspectives on good.
Emilia Leese 16:05
Um, should I go? Should I go first? And Well, see, I don't know I The way I see it, is, this is these are our communities, right? So this is where I look at social media, like the town square. So back in the day, we would go down in the town square, we would walk there, and we would meet up with people and we'd have discussions townsquare walking now not so much. You know, you'll you'll you'll do this online. And so you have a different you have more people. And so you talk to more people? Do we put ourselves in a bubble? I think to some extent, yes. But don't we always do that even you know, vegan, not vegan, whatever it is, if somebody likes, I don't know. You know, they like sparkly things on cats or something. And so they'll gravitate to the sparkly cat section. And you know what I mean, like so. So we, we always gravitate towards things that we like, that's just what we do as people. So and I don't think and I'm borrowing language from a philosopher here. I don't think that there's a more authentic community in the past, I don't romanticise the past. And I and neither the future we have now, this is what we've got, this is the hand we've been dealt, we play it. And if the playing means we engage online, then we got to sort out how do we engage online? What does it mean? Does it make me happy? Does it make me unhappy? Is it something I want to do? But it would be the same way? If you're engaging with people, you know, in the town square? Is that something I want to do or not want to do? And I grew up in a small town in Italy, where there was this town square mentality where you would, you know, go there or not go there. Some people just were like, No, I don't go into the town square, because everybody's talking about me, I don't want to hear their stuff, blah, blah, blah, exactly the same things that we say about online discussion. So so we just need to work all those things into into our life. And I think they, they can be extremely helpful. And, but also, they can be problematic sometimes for sure. with anything, so it, it's always good to have somebody that you can go and and talk to about these things. That's that's really, that's really important. And let's see, you said bubble, you said, whether we get comfortable, that's also a very good point, do we get comfortable? And again, you know what, I'm going to say this, you're, you're gonna know exactly, I'm gonna say, we've always done that to it, because it's, it's, you know, where, where people. And, you know, we've always been, we will always get a little bit comfortable. So we just have to find what works, what works for us.
Eva Charalambides 19:29
Well, I have, I have two things I can add to that. I completely agree, though, that it's the way it is. I will say first point at a very personal level, I think social media is accessibility. So for a lot of people, there is not the opportunity to march or digital or choose to do in person activity of any kind. And so thank goodness. You know, I've come up in an age where I have people at my fingertips at all times, and I can feel that connection. But I will say Even working it and even having my so called bubble, that bubble could burst so easily. I just have to sit down with family member it just to sit down with one non vegan, or I just have to wear vegan shirt into an Uber and like bubble burst immediately. So yeah, okay, if you scroll all day and everything is, you know, when petition champion this, you know, maybe you'll get a little caught up in that, but you put the phone down, and I feel like the real world still screaming at you a little bit. So it's nice to have the balance of choosing what we see online and letting that be, you know, a little bit of the positive end of the vegan world since it's always so brooding and negative and heartbreaking.
Jim Moore 20:41
Honestly. You're both so right, you've genuinely given me a bit of a an epiphany, if you like I thank you both those those are fantastic perspectives on it. And then once I haven't necessarily heard before, so that was excellent. Thank you. Where did you both meet? And when did you decide to write a book together? I'm fascinated by by that kind of that kind of story. Whoever would like
Emilia Leese 21:10
to go on either.
Eva Charalambides 21:12
I always forget the year I almost always forget the year was it 2016 or 2017. We I wanted one of those. There was a there was a vegan the same. We can't we just can't. There was a vn summit in Berkeley that we had both independently travelled to. And on the same morning, we both ran at the same Canyon without knowing it. We ate breakfast at the same deli without knowing it. And then we had been introduced during one of like a, you know, a speaker's conference. And very quickly, people had asked me if me was a family member, a sister, a cousin, how were we related because the you know, the spark was there. And I think it was very much solidified. And we've talked about this story at length and I will talk about it forever. The first opportunity we and dine together. We took a box of doughnuts to go so we would lecture and the lecture was on macrobiotic vegan eating. And we were sitting in the back row with these big, you know, very unhealthy vegan doughnuts. Nothing connects us more than those donuts. really, truly, really, exactly completely not macrobiotic vegan donuts, but there you go. Talking about connecting and bubble like you find another junk food vegan. And that's it right?
Jim Moore 22:34
There's no deeper bond, even more so than the sparkly cat people, the the junk food vegans, because they're the real deal.
Eva Charalambides 22:44
Yeah, so despite living so far away, we had the opportunity to then meet almost yearly, in a different city for a vegan event, and worked tables together and did promotion together and did all sorts of basically any opportunity, we had to promote veganism together or eat vegan food together, we took the opportunity. And so it didn't take long, I mean to have a book idea, again, over food in a bakery in Toronto, clearly, clearly, clearly. And the idea really like the book is a few things, a collection of essays, and then the workbook portion of the book where it's practical questions and answers for people to kind of get a better understanding of how to take what they've learned out into the world. But that workbook was the heart of what we wanted to do, we thought, how can we create something for vegans to feel more confident in breaching the topics with non vegans? And then how can we also introduce veganism to non vegan time. And so from that work workbook, and some of the essays we collaborated on, it kind of came together into one fantastic piece.
Emilia Leese 23:57
Yep, exactly. Yeah. And then, and then we just, you know, we have this idea. So we started putting it together. And, and then we found our publisher. And, I mean, the whole process. The whole process took about three years from the moment we had the idea to publication day. And again, you know, we were used to talking and collaborating remotely anyway. So that wasn't that wasn't so much so much an issue at all. And yeah, I mean, it's it was It's incredible to think back to that moment, because I was sitting in the back of their car, and even her partner, were driving me to the airport, and that's when the idea happened. And it's just incredible to think of that moment and then to see the end product in reality, it's, it's sort of surreal. Like, I don't feel like it's really happening, you know, but it's happening. But yeah, so so. And in so the distance wasn't really ever an issue and again, because of all the variety of communication modes that we have, we can talk in almost, you know, not just almost real time in real time, even if we're, you know, if it's just through through messages, or you know, like, okay, let's have a call and read through this. Okay, what do you think about this? What do you think about that, and that sort of thing? So that it's just incredible. Would we have been able to do this? You know, 30 years ago, I don't know, would have been three letters. That would have taken some time.
Eva Charalambides 25:51
I think I would have just stayed in Scotland with you. That's true.
Jim Moore 25:55
That sounds like a good option to be fair. With the inspiration for for the book, in terms of, you know, Was this something that you felt you both felt that, you know, this is something we would have liked, at certain point in, in your journeys? Or was it something more identified that other people might benefit from where as you'd sort of, you know, travelled through the communities? If you like?
Emilia Leese 26:22
That's a great question. I, for me, it definitely was. The questions that I had had, and situations I had come across, and then talked about it with friends. And then friends asking me questions or me hearing, or witnessing certain things happening and Eva witnessing certain certain things happening and and how do you deal with that? So I think it was more of a, for me, it was more of a, it came to me. And so it helped me to think through these things. And so I thought, Well, hey, if it helped me to think through these things in this way, in the way that I've been doing, well, it's going to help other people. And that was actually it was in fact, the, the impetus of the of the idea itself, in the back of the car was was exactly that, like, how can we help people? vegans in particular, sort out all the different strands of the issues that come up and give them the tools to work out the the ethical problems, and the conundrums that you get faced with? So, so yes, it certainly would have been useful to me on day one. Say? No doubt. So yeah, and hopefully, it will be helpful to people, to people now, on whatever day they are, it is one of the interesting things. If I could go on a little tangent. So one of the interesting things at one of these, these vegan festivals where we've we've done advocacy and tabling and so on, one of the things that struck me so the the tent was called, why should I go vegan? So people would come and say, Okay, tell me why. So I would come up with a lot of different things. And there was one person who brought her friend said, Please explain to my friend here. So I explained to friend, and she had been vegan for I don't know, like 18 years or something like that. And then, at the end of my very brief, maybe one minute long thing, spiel, however long was she said, I have never heard it just discussed that way. And I've been vegan for 18 years. And that to me, I was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we all need we all need to stop and, and help each other out and be able to speak in different ways and to own the material in our heads, you know, so that we can then mould it and shape it and be able to talk to people in a lot of different ways, in an in a lot of different contexts to, you know, people who are friendly or people who aren't and all everything in between, you know?
Jim Moore 29:37
Absolutely. Go either sorry. Yeah.
Eva Charalambides 29:43
Oh, yes, I agree. I think so much of our personal experiences went into the book. And so much of that came from like, having people say, oh, Eva will explain it. But oh, Eva understands how to explain it. I would say yeah, no, like, surely you Understand it enough to act on it and to feel it and appreciate it as a vegan. So there must be a way to make it much more clear without having, you know, the cliff notes or the infographic or kind of some of the other ways people learn kind of the facts or stats that they want to push forward. It was like, there's not really a tonne of very accessible ethical handbooks that will say, Listen, you got this, here's the way to frame it, here's the way to discuss it, here's the way to bring it up, here's a way to bring it back, whatever the case may be,
Emilia Leese 30:36
I think you've makes a really good point, they're insane. So that you don't need, you have all this information in your head exactly what she said, You've got it. So So you've got to make it part of yourself, you know, to synthesise it, so it becomes part of you. And then that way, when you're talking, it's very authentic, if I could use that word in people know that you're not just rattling off numbers and bla bla bla, and because, you know, but they they hear what you have to say that comes from very real place. Whether they're persuaded or not is completely immaterial. But you because you have no control over that. Well, you have control over is what you say, and how you relate to that person. So yeah.
Jim Moore 31:29
Would you sort of almost describe, describe it in a way as like, I'll Chuck the word out there and see where it lands, sort of almost like a sort of a survival guide, in a way, like, in a way I think, you know, if I think about my time, in the short four years of being vegan, I've navigated many conversations, some very badly, some quite well, I think, and eat but each time having to sort of learn and adapt, is it in a way sort of a way, a sort of a methodology, a kind of a book to help you navigate those those waters a little bit more commonly, perhaps, then, then that long process of finding things out and things going wrong, and you barking numbers at people like a that you've heard of the latest documentary? Is that would that be a fair way to describe it?
Eva Charalambides 32:28
I think that yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the things that maybe a lot of new vegans stumble on or something I see it's very common, is like, a lot of non vegans, when they approach you with these questions, expect you to be an authority on a lot of different topics at once. Right, we are not nutritionists, we are not farmers, we are not, you know, all desert island, divers, we have none of these things. So when we can, you know very much simplify the argument centred on the animals, again, on the ethics and about what we're personally doing. I feel like a lot of the confusion can drop away. And so the way that the book is that like life raft, or you know, something to help you struggling is really just to show you, you don't have to know everything, like I'm saying on these cue cards, so that you're meticulous in your answers to people because if you know, veganism is about not commodifying animals, and it's about freedom for living beings, like it's really easy to take every argument or every conversation and bring it back to that core belief and understanding
Jim Moore 33:41
100% and I see a scene away actually, the sort of Rise of the vegan YouTuber, if you like that sort of come debate me kind of tables that they almost can make people feel I've had a few conversations of people with it, they've almost been made to feel kind of a bit as vegans more uncomfortable, because they're not necessarily they don't feel as equipped, or as confrontational really to have that kind of discourse with, with people that they see from these kind of like the almost the celebrity vegan types. So yeah, I think I think that's sort of this more practical guide to help you navigate those waters and recognise I love this point about, you know, I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a farmer. I'm not, you know, but but this is what I this is where I am. I think that's a fantastic point.
Emilia Leese 34:29
Exactly. And take it taking it back to the to the, to the core principles, then you don't have to have all these arguments about numbers and about this and that, because people are people really wanting to talk about that when they ask you that, is that really, you know, and when they are when they're arguing with you when they're battling with you? Are they really trying to get information or are they just trying to get Sort of one over on you? Or is it is is there good faith in that argument? Or in that discussion? Not even argument? I don't want to use that word. But is there good faith in that discussion? Because if the if there isn't good faith in that discussion, no one is under any obligation to have a discussion. If it's not in good faith, no one's under any obligation to give a response. And we need to feel comfortable saying no, saying nothing, or if we are going to say something, to feel comfortable with the basic principles, and, and in the book, that is why we bring it back to use. It's not treatment, but its use, we always talk about, oh, you know, we treat the animals well, and bla bla bla, bla bla bla, which is fine. Obviously, for those the subject of that treatment, no doubt is better to be well treated than not. But we never asked the question, why should we be using animals in the first place? And that is what we want to get at is, that is, is what we just have to go back to, because then that changes the paradigm of the of the discussion. You know, you're, you're not having, but and this and that, no, you're you're going before all that, because without use, there is no treatment. So you've got to have the use conversation first. And I think that is also very, it makes people pause, because they haven't necessarily not everybody. They haven't necessarily thought about it in that way.
Jim Moore 36:53
Yeah, no, absolutely, that that idea of coming back to that central argument, I think just absolutely clears the waters, you know, you there is there is no room for muddying the waters at that point. Because you kind of can't get past it really. Until you you you know, until you answer that question. You kind of have to you can't get into like you say treatment, you can't get into all nutritional profile of this and what about the you know, you just can't it's a fantastic kind of angle. I love it. Thank you, when when writing the book, did you kind of feel the need to test your you know, with the material with with sort of some some vegans and non vegans was was there a kind of a process of that? Or was this kind of actually our experiences have shown us that this is this is the way to to kind of go with this and these are the these are the kind of the arguments we want to put out there or the the philosophy we want to share with you know, what was their kind of that that that testing period?
Emilia Leese 38:03
Oh, go Eva,
Jim Moore 38:07
go for you.
Eva Charalambides 38:08
I'm gonna say both. So much of it, like we said, has stemmed from real conversations, we've had real opportunities to take these workbook questions and have them out with people in the real world and see how they take them and see how they walk away with them. But then me also had the opportunity to kind of workshop it with people while it was being created as well.
Emilia Leese 38:32
Yeah, and I did workshops in London, at Black Cat Cafe, which I love. And in, in Berlin at Baum house. And we also wrote for you karate and some other publications. So we had some experience with how people were going to react to our writing. And, and that was very helpful. And then when we were putting together some drafts, oh, they definitely went out to a number of people, non vegans as well as vegans because both important and and, you know, got some really excellent feedback, which then we worked into the book. And, and don't forget also our publisher, the editors at our publisher unbound, they're not vegan. And so they were able to really, they did, they really did a great job in in guiding us through that process. the editing process really is a guide. And even when they when when they would challenge us on certain things where I was like, oh, they're totally wrong. And and so I was like, no Let's think about this. There's a reason so let's engage with that, even though they're totally wrong. And then you're like, now they're they're definitely not wrong. And then every time, you know, I think there was like, maybe one or two things that they were like, We were both like, No, no, definitely not. But, but yeah, mostly titles. Yes, exactly. But, um, so So yeah, it's so important. You know, I think people believe that the writing process is a solitary thing. And for some people, it may very well be that but there are so it's so much more than that. It's never a solitary thing. There are people who will help you along. And editors are worth their weight in gold. And so, so it's, it's a group effort in a way, obviously, it's your words, and your, your idea and so on. And you're doing the work, but somebody is pushing you along, and then guiding you along. Like GPS,
Eva Charalambides 41:08
big crowdfunding as well. I mean, you have to add that this book wouldn't happen if we didn't have over 300 supporters say, We want this book to happen. We are definitely a product of the the vegan and non vegan communities that support us at large. making it possible.
Emilia Leese 41:29
Yeah, very good point.
Jim Moore 41:31
The way you described there, the inner being of being a writer being, you know, for some people, they see it as this solitary, that absolutely chimes with me, you know, I have the image of like, a Kerouac Stipe type figure with a typewriter and a very long piece of paper that being tortured for months and not coming out. And then, you know, this horrible process of giving it to somebody, and then, you know, poring over it, and, you know, you disagreeing with them, and so on. And I'm particularly fascinated when when, when folks who've written a book like this from a very distinct angle, that's, you know, really talking about that the moment the experience of 1% of people. So I'm really intrigued in the kind of the, the non vegan reactions it was there any specific ones that you either thought that you mentioned, you're absolutely wrong there, and then came around to him. I'm intrigued if there's any particular ones that you can share, because I think that that's a fascinating notion to me.
Emilia Leese 42:34
Oh, in terms of comments from the editor, gosh, no, I can't remember. No, because that was, because there is a part of the process of like, basically being chained to your desk and like working through it. So I don't remember specifically. Um, yeah, I don't remember. Exactly, exactly, I'd have to look back through the the manuscript at that point in time to really remember because then, at that, because at that point that you realise when you engage with the comment, and you say, Okay, why are they saying this? And in what way and what am I trying to say, and you, then it then becomes part of you, because you, you've assimilated it, you've engaged with it, and you've worked through it. And, and you see the, the rationale behind it. But we've had lots of non vegans read the book, and lots of vegans read the book, and have had, you know, a book at this point, you know, now that it's now that it's out, and it's been very positive feedback from both sides. And sometimes the same. You know, it was it's as thought provoking for vegans, as it is for non vegans.
Eva Charalambides 44:08
Yeah, I'm gonna say it's my favourite part. It's the lightbulb moment. I don't care if you've been vegan for a long time, or you're new or you're never going to go vegan in your own mind. It's when somebody reaches out to us or leaves a comment saying, I never thought of it that way. I never thought of these issues. I never considered this possibility. I think somebody recently said, I didn't realise how vegan I was in my own sensibilities without being a vegan yet that I was like, Oh, wow. I wish everyone would take that away from reading this. That's great.
Emilia Leese 44:41
Yeah, I love that comment, comment. Yeah, it really stood out.
Jim Moore 44:46
From the, the, you know, considering the feedback you've had now, D you kind of feeling I suppose that that three year process this kind of almost hive mind where you've had people collaborate Writing with you at various points to come up with this, this this book. I imagine there's a huge sense of kind of gratification that it's you know, finally it's it's we've got to where we where we wanted to get to unconscious like the I suppose that we talked about social media and so on the community kind of ever evolving. Is that already sort of thoughts in your mind about where you know, a place to go next? Is there kind of an intention for appreciate just after after a three year period, putting yourself through what you've done? That's probably like a no, not right now. But is that is there some sort of thoughts are already starting to germinate?
45:40
Yes.
45:42
In short, yes, neither vacation,
Eva Charalambides 45:44
vacation, we need some time. I think especially since this is like, such a big, it's the UK launch that we've just had. And it's not as as much in North America yet. It feels like I had the big boom of gratification when the book was in my hand. But I'm still like, sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for it all to happen. So I don't feel like we're far enough away from the end of the new bear. But that being said, I just feel like, because so much of this material was written, you know, even a year ago. It's like, of course, there's new vegan things and new ideas that come up all the time. You just have to read the news, or see anything that's happening in the world and be like, I want to talk about it. But I just think we're we're definitely not at the point yet. Where we're like, gonna write it down.
Emilia Leese 46:37
Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes out and it really is. It's Yeah, I totally agree that that's such that's perfect. It really is a flattering question. That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, because it North America comes out in January. So So yeah, so we've got this this you know, this moment of being able to, to have it now. And it's it's really amazing and exciting. And lots of people in the states are already buying it because they've seen it. Or they've seen friends in the in the US who supported us in the in the crowdfunding for unbound. So so they're like, Wait a second, why don't I have that? That's very exciting. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, the the, it's the pre thinking process. It's that moment. For me, I think about things in in a sort of a really big way for a while. And then and then you're like, wait, this, this, this is the idea. And then you can like, you can build it from there. But now it's definitely in the miasma of pre thinking.
47:58
Yeah, I'll feel like Sorry, go on. No, go on either.
Eva Charalambides 48:03
I was gonna say we never wanted this to be like a one on one. But we get the question so much about what's next. I do feel like there are a lot of topics that are very individually personal to us, that we didn't really cover in depth. We just were like, what about this as an idea to introduce people to it? So certainly, I think, would there to be another think like a vegan think like a vegan too. There could be an expansion on what we're talking about, in addition to new things, it wouldn't have to be like a from scratch. Idea necessarily. Yeah.
Jim Moore 48:44
I appreciate the cruel question for for people who've poured their hearts and souls into something for three years for somebody to say, what's next? You know,
48:57
that's a great question, because it gets us thinking to
Jim Moore 49:02
maybe a podcast, then then you can be up to the minute I suppose all the time. So for folks who would love to get hold of a copy, and I've got one here, lucky enough to have one. So an author I really recommend folks do where would folks go about getting a copy of things like a vegan
Emilia Leese 49:25
so you can go and well, first of all, anywhere books are sold. But more specifically, you can go to our website and there will be a link to unbound where you can get the E book you can get signed copies. And those are very rare because obviously he was in Canada and I'm here and so we had these special bookplates made and we both signed them so that they are they can be in the book. So signed copies there as well as the hard drive just the regular unsigned hardcover. You can get the The book on Audible. Special Oh, sorry Maya, Maya, like watch decided it was listening to me. And so there's the audio book on Audible. And of course, your favourite bookshop. And if you are not in the UK or Australia or New Zealand, you can get the book from Book Depository and they have free worldwide shipping. And of course, you know, good, not not good read sorry. bookshop.com and of course amazon.com
50:46
things like a vegan.com incredible are easy
50:48
to remember.
Jim Moore 50:50
Absolutely what thank you so much for both for for joining me and, and giving us a bit of your time. And thank you so much as well for writing the book I think, you know, one of the things that's kind of struck me as I've gone through some some of the the chapters is even as someone who's you know, been in been in it for four years and had many conversations with lots of different vegan folks through the podcast, I still feel like there's there's these those lightbulb moments you mentioned either there's there's learning, there's conversation, there's even just the immersing yourself in some of the discussions and the thought processes. I think you land in a better place at the end of it and that can only be a good thing. So thank you. Thank you so much. Both of you
51:35
are delighted to hear that and thank you so much.
Jim Moore 51:39
Awesome well till next time till think like a vegan too. I'll speak to you bye