Dana Burton

Jim Moore 0:27

Hello, my name is Jim this my podcast the bloody vegans, you're very welcome to. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism discovering along the way, a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the front. Before we get onto the episode in hand, the usual bit of admin, if you are an apple podcast user, you will notice that there is a new subscription option available within the app, you can subscribe to the bloody vegans podcast, supporting the show and getting yourself access to episodes a week ahead for just 99 pence per month, what an absolute bargain. And you can help keep the lights on as Bloody vegans towels. So that's the first bit of admin, you can also support the show via Patreon. We just head over to Patreon search for bloody vegans podcasts, you'll see the podcast there, and you'll be able to support our various levels and receive various incentives for doing so. Or it would be very much appreciated. As with your Apple podcast subscription. If you don't want to do either of those things, that's absolutely fine. But you could leave a review, positive five star review would be lovely on your podcast provider of choice. And that also massively helps the show. Finally, if you don't even want to do that, just tell a friend about the show. That would be great too. So various ways to support the bloody vegans podcast. Let's go on to the episode in the hat. This week, I was joined by Donna Burton. Donna is the founder of vegan kids UK, what essentially started out as a vegan, family focused festival if you like. And ultimately through the pandemic and, you know, various kind of obstacles that got in the way has turned into actually a thriving online community as well as a festival that is coming soon in 2022. So it's a fantastic little initiative that I think is really going to support vegan families here in the UK, and potentially beyond with the online facility I guess. And Donna is a wonderful individual, really, really thoughtful, and very much has the experience of not only her kids, but all vegan kids at the centre of everything she does. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Donna Burson vegan kids UK.

Dana Burton 3:12

It's been quite a long time whenever came into animals or anything thinking consciously, I guess was when I went out I became a diver. So I used to dive and I became really interested in sharks. So I started working for the shark conservation trust. And I've started campaigning about people eating shark fin soup and protecting sharks and kind of wanting everyone to know about sharks. And that was all really through diving and when I became aware about the plight of the sharks, but up until that point, I hadn't really had much experience with any kind of vegetarians or vegans didn't really even never even really consciously thought about anything myself. And I was my sister had been a vegetarian actually, when she went to university but at the time again, I just didn't really she never I don't think I'm not 100 cent so even bought her reasons for going. It wasn't necessarily animal rights for her. And I remember I went to a restaurant with my husband, when we first started going out and he was a vegetarian when I met him. And we went to it's called Donna Noir. And it's a restaurant where they have it completely in the dark in London. It's quite cool experience. And I went for the you know, everything menu, complete surprise. And at the end of the menu, they come to you and they say, Oh, do you wanna know what you ate? And I was like, Yeah, tell me and it was like sappers and crocodiles, which didn't bother me at the time. And then they said and shark and I was like, Oh, my goodness, I've just literally eaten what I campaign against. I didn't even know because and it was such a shock to me. I actually went and spoke to the manager at the end and I was like, What are you doing like Shark Ducks are protected, they're endangered. And he told me the story about how they'd been farmed. And I think in my head, I thought, Okay, then I'm thinking farm sharks is even a thing that seems really strange, because how could you farm a shark. And so that was kind of the first thing. And then obviously, my husband was vegetarian. So I'd started eating more vegetarian at home anyway, when we were cooking, because it just kind of made sense. And actually our wedding, we had an entirely vegetarian wedding because I wasn't really that bothered with eating meat. It was I wasn't one of those people who was like, I have to have meat and veg on my plate and anything like that. So I, I just kind of gradually stopped eating it, and then I'd eat it when I went out. And I can remember actually getting quite frustrated sometimes when we go out to restaurants with him, and he'd be like, I can't eat anything. And then I started becoming a bit more ethically aware about issues, things like fair trade and slave labour. And I started boycotting products like Nestle, Coca Cola, Mars, and then I, the more I kind of looked into products, I kind of started seeing that actually, there's a lot of products here that are damaging, I'm starting to think, what am I going to eat like, it's nothing like any anymore. So I, I ended up opening a shop to sell ethical goods. And that was kind of the the premise and at the time, I'd been gone VT vegetarian. Alongside my husband, I remember watching a video I used to, I never really liked handling raw meat anyway, and I didn't like eating meat off the bone. So I think maybe there was some sort of subconscious connection there. And I remember watching a video because I used to love to come nuggets, and I think it was one of those foods that I thought I would never be able to live without. And I remember watching a video about how they've made them and it was I don't even know if it's true, but it was it just was completely disgusting. It was like this like red marsh and they taught me how to bleach it because they just put all and I was like oh my goodness. And it was about the same time as the horsemeat scandal. And, and I was like, I wasn't really bothered about the horse meat because I was one of those people that sort of thought, well, an animal any animal, I wasn't really if it was a horse or like a crocodile. It didn't you know, it didn't really bother me, it was meat with me. I wasn't particular about the types of meat I would eat.

But I had these chicken, I just it just totally put me off chicken nuggets. And I think because they were kind of like the one food that was probably stopping me from going vegetarian, it was kind of like, well, I'm practically I'm like 95% of the way there at home anyway, because me and my husband would always eat the vegetarian food anyway. So it was only when I was going out. So I just I'd kind of gone toe to toe myself. So the shop shop was entirely vegetarian at the time. And I kind of went on this myth, this mission to find ethical products. So I did a lot of research into all the products that I was selling. And through people coming into my shop, I started to learn that actually, there's no such thing as ethical dairy. And I remember kind of having the conversation with my husband because he's been vegetarian for like 30 years now. And I remember sort of saying to him, because he was a big you know, you know, vegetarians that love their teas. He was he was one of those. And I was like we can't we can't have this anymore. Like I've literally I mean naively didn't even think about how milk got into a cow. When I found out I was completely horrified mentioned to my husband and we were like we had to kind of go on that journey and it was really from my shop that pushed me to go vegan and then I and then I ended up turning my shop vegan we were only really selling honey and dairy anyway in the shop. But I cut out the dairy first and then then I cut out the honey and then we became a vegan shop. And that was quite cool. And yeah, I guess that's that's pretty much so I kind of he kind of a vegetarian and then I went vegan and then the kids then we returned the kids vegan as well.

Jim Moore 8:57

What age were you kids? When when when you kind of broke the news to them? Yeah,

Dana Burton 9:00

well, my son was about two so I mean, he already been vegetarian from birth. And my daughter was about four but I didn't. I didn't kind of I didn't actually break the news to the kids. So I I mean, I kind of my husband was a bit reluctant to go vegan and I kind of just literally like every time when he was opening the fridge door I was like or milk and I was kind of like putting a lot of pressure on him with the kids. I kind of we kind of did it a bit silently at first I think we just was like, because it wasn't a massive change because we're already vegetarian. We just kind of switched out the milk so I remember actually getting a whole load of milk out for the kids because they they didn't really like the vegan mix. At first I literally got bought every one and I was like let's do a taste test. Let's decide. And in the end I ended up making them kind of go cold turkey off milk for about a month. And then eventually they they started drinking oat milk. But I let them I love kind of let them choose it first outside of or I didn't necessarily put any. I mean I would never have bought vegan for them. Normally Have them but for example in a grandma's I haven't really sort of said to them all your, you can't do that. And then my daughter was at Christmas. She says, she was my in laws and they bought out a box of chocolates. And they said, Oh, do you want these? And she said, all they vegan, and I was like, she's ready for it. So I was like, Oh, hello. And after that day, I was like, Do you want to be a vegan as well? And she was like, Yeah, and I thought, okay, and then, kind of because my son was a bit younger, he kind of just followed along anyway. But remember, he loves He loves chips. I remember having a conversation with him when he was quite young. And I said, if chips weren't vegan, would you? Would you still eat them? And he said, No. And I was like, oh, okay, so they were there properly into the movie message themselves. And I think it is important to get kids to kind of be on your side, rather than kind of saying, Okay, you have to eat this and this, because there's a chance they might rebel at some point.

Jim Moore 10:54

Yeah. Were they were they in any kind of formal setting at this point? nurseries or anything like that?

Dana Burton 11:00

Yeah. Well, actually, my son, Leo, they're both in nursery at that point. And I kind of actually forgot to mention it to the nursery. Oh, well, my daughter, by the time I went vegan, she was just started school. So I meant I talked to the school about it. Actually, they were first I was a bit worried how it was going to go down. But actually, they provided a vegan menu for and it was mostly okay, we did have, obviously some issues. My son, I hadn't really mentioned it to the nursery, because I've kind of been I was providing his lunch. So I didn't really think and then one day, they, there was a picture of like Jacob, with Jacob holding up some milk and it says Jacobs, sharing milk with his friends. And I was like, I had no idea they were given the milk. Like, I don't know why I thought they would, I just didn't think they were given them any food or drink at nursery. And I didn't think to even mention it. And after that point, I then had to go in and say, Oh, hang on. He's gonna be having milk. So I was a bit horrified by that.

Jim Moore 11:57

How about things like come activities that they had to do there? You know, did you ever have to kind of like almost any of those kind of conversations, you must have to re educate the the nursery or at least help them understand that there's a more inclusive way to do this than the way that they're currently doing it.

Dana Burton 12:12

I think the nursery were actually quite helpful with it all they remember they did a pancake day thing. And they decided to do a vegan one for all the hoods, and they used it as opportunity to kind of talk a bit about veganism. I think because I had the shop as well. I was kind of sort of known in the area a little bit. And I think that may have helped with that, my daughter, that it was more of a problem at school. And I think it was more of a problem from things like Easter, they gave her a packet of grapes when they gave all the other kids and you know, in a kid's like four or five, and even though they were on it, and they they understood and they didn't really seem to get that upset by it to be honest. I mean, I would be pretty upset if I got given grapes, no one else got given chocolate, but but they Yeah, she seemed she seemed to take it on. But I kind of had to teach the school a little bit more about you know, and I remember my daughter coming home one day when she was in reception class and saying, mommy cows don't get hurt when they when they have milk. And I was like, Where do you have access? My teacher told me in milk daimyo because she was having water when all the other kids have milk. And again, that was her choice. We could have probably provided one but you know, kids don't really need milk when they're five. So water is fine. Yeah,

Jim Moore 13:35

that's it's it's a fascinating one I ask because I've got a little boys. He's three and a half. And so a bit like you, I found a few little bits and pieces with the nursery. A couple of conversations around, you know, they're a bit of the kind of grapes example actually a couple of times, so we've had to kind of educate on this. It sounds crazy, like educating on better junk food that we can you please make sure that he gets you know, x y Zed. But other than that they've been they've been really receptive. But I'm really conscious of schools because our kind of thing we know where there isn't, call it what it is where there isn't that fee being paid. I wonder whether there's a sort of less of a less of a feeling of responsibility maybe or, and the scale of the operation being that much larger. I just wonder whether there's, you know, it feels like more of an inconvenience to them. And I wonder about that milk story is really interesting. I wonder whether it was almost like a teacher trying to Queller, a potential uprising. somebody points out the milks nicely that good for cows

Dana Burton 14:41

and I think that's the thing. I mean, my kids are quite activist like anyway, and yeah, there's definitely been issues and I remember once actually going to a party, outside of school, obviously, and all the kids started suddenly chanting. My daughter's name is the worst is the worst, you know, and I was like, I was so shocked at the time. And they were actually talking about her food because they were eating at the time. And they were saying that her food was the worst. But I was just, I was so surprised and I'm so shocked. I'm so regret not speaking up at that time, because I kind of like, look into the parents, like, are you gonna like deal with the kitchen is there like, and I think I found that that sort of thing did happen in in school, obviously, because they had different food and and there's that whole issue like I know, one of my daughter's friends, kind of my daughter talked her into trying veganism and then obviously her parent talked her out of it. And it causes all sorts of conflicts. And actually, both my kids now home educated, not necessarily entirely because of the veganism thing, but it's it does make it a lot easier.

Jim Moore 15:44

Yeah, I can imagine. It's just really difficult, isn't it, kids have got such a strong sense of like, justice, if you like and things being fair. And if they see an injustice, they want to call it out. So once they know these things, they like quite comfortable saying to everybody, but sort of society's kind of designed for everybody to not call out anything, leave it all. Leave it all in the shadows, which is that's not the right way to go about things. I wish we had the mind of everyone at the mind of you know, our kids, but you know, unfortunately not it's it's really difficult to get them to navigate the subtleties of light, you know, people aren't quite ready to hear that may be in that way. And you held it don't even know how you you begin really long. I'm lucky mine's any, any little at the moment. So everything's quite easy. And it does seem to be that How old are your kids now?

Dana Burton 16:31

My daughter is nine and my son is just nearly coming up to be seven.

Jim Moore 16:35

Okay, well, I'll ask you this question. Because I, I, I was gonna say I I feel like even in the last three and a half years since Arthur has been been around, that probably the other parents that we've spoken to and things like that are just more aware like that, even if they don't understand all the nuances and the detail. There's at least when you say vegan now, okay, cool. Yeah, we'll provide something at the party or whatever. There's not like a like, what are we there's not a complete, like, catatonic state induced by the word vegan. Have you? Have you found that? Or is it is that very much like dependent on the group? You you surround yourself?

Dana Burton 17:13

Yeah, I mean, I do try and surround myself with vegans now, which my mental health? But obviously, I mean, my kids still have friends that are not, and I think it does depend on the parents. And obviously, the longer you go down that journey when they have friends, you know, my daughter's now her friends that I mean, their parents are pretty well aware of my daughter's requirements. And yeah, my daughter, but there have definitely been times when it's been a real challenge. And, you know, my, my daughter's party, I always used to, obviously do a whole vegan spread. And obviously, all the parents knew that we were the vegans in the village, you know, the odd ones. And because I live in a bit of a country land, which is quite a farming territory, as well. So it's, we definitely are the odd the odd ones out here. And, and, you know, there was times when I would always do things like Pastor and things that they would eat, so it wouldn't be anything. Yeah, no two different so that they could, and I was kind of doing as well to be like, you know, we're not that odd. Yeah, almost, like, you know, like party rings, or I do whatever, I could try to make it as normal as possible. And there were times when kids would like, come to the party. And they'd be like, Oh, I don't like anything mummy. And you could just kind of tell they must have been preempted with that. Because, yeah. And the parent, and I'd say to the parents, Oh, you guys can help yourself? No, no, thank you. Like, you know, they don't want to eat food. And there was definitely things like that. And there were parties where we went to where my daughter had to stand by the side and had literally nothing to eat. And as I got better, obviously, I would always kind of make contact. But there were times when I was especially when they're in their first year, they kind of go to everyone's party. Yeah, you know, and there were times when it was like, Oh, my goodness, there's nothing and I thought that was gonna be all i i thought that pert parent knew that she was vegan, and I'd forgotten to mention it. And there was at least two times when it was really awkward at parties. And they are one of the tricky things to navigate, but not now what I do is I just bring a box of food or speak to the parent in advance and say, Oh, by the way, we're vegan. What are you doing? I could try and make some Yeah. And alternatives. But yeah, is, is tricky. And I think, you know, one of the things for us as adults, you know, we've all experienced discrimination. We've all experienced it, you know, I mean, I was once out at a conference and someone said, Oh, why are you having something different? I say, Well, I'm vegan, you know, and she was like, Oh, I hate vegans and walked off. Okay. I know. Yeah. And, you know, as adults, we can sometimes find that quite challenging. And you do think, you know, what effect is this having on our kids and What can what you know, what are they? What are they feeling? And how is it affecting them? And it? It does play on my mind a lot, which is kind of why I started vegan kids, I guess.

Jim Moore 20:12

Yeah, and a perfect segue. Let's get into that vegan kids. Let's let's talk about it. Well, what is it? When did you start it? Tell us a little bit about the the origin story.

Dana Burton 20:22

So I was in my shop and I as I was kind of going down my journey I was becoming much more ethical is becoming much more conscious, consciously aware. And I started to think you know, what, selling products is not ethical. Consumerism is the problem, essentially. And I was like, I'm a shopkeeper. And to keep my livelihood going, I have to encourage people to buy things. And I just had this real conflict where I was starting, and I was being pushed down avenues like the zero waste movement, which I wasn't really, really that into, because I was starting to become really passionate about veganism, and everything about it. And I just, I just was becoming so much less passionate, and the shop it was incredible hard work. I was, you know, had two young kids and it was it was full on because I wasn't just running the shop, I had to do all the stuff that comes with running a business as well. And I remember my son once saying to me, I said, Oh, what we were reading the mystery books and what misdemeanours Mommy I was kind of hoping you'd say well, Mr. Lazy or something. He's like, Oh, Mr. Busy, and I was like, Oh, no. My something's I'm busy. And so I, I kind of I've been going through this thing asked a cow, what can I do and I was like, I'm so passionate about veganism, I want to do something for that. And I, I don't really know where the idea came from, actually, but it kind of popped in my head, I want to do a festival for kids I want I want to bring kids together. And I want to, I just want a weekend where because this was kind of before veganism was as as it as out in the open now as you know, I mean, learning talking like 445 years ago, maybe, but it's so much has changed in those four or five years already. And you know, you didn't really, we didn't meet that many vegans. I mean, obviously, I have to shop. So I did me a few. But it wasn't, it just wasn't as much. I just wanted a world where I could just go and be vegan for a weekend where, you know, everyone around me was vegan, everyone got me everyone understood, you know, how I felt and we could just go and have this really cool festival and aimed at kids cuz there there weren't a lot of I know, there's vegan campout obviously, but that's kind of not really aimed entirely at kids. That's more and I, I didn't actually want to bring my kids into what potentially might be a drug drinky environment, I was kind of thinking more sort of family aimed festival and just wouldn't it be cool to just create a vegan world for a weekend. So I went down that route. And I started with the festival, we started planning and we got everything going, we sold loads of tickets, everything was going fine. And this is in 2019. And suddenly, my land owner said to me, oh, there's a problem. He was basically being blackmailed by one of the villages there to stop the festival. And it all got completely out of hand. And we were about I think about three, four months out. So it was it was like full on prepares. Yeah, and, and he pulled the Blandina pulled the plug, because he was literally being blackmailed by anti anti vegan, which is ironic because the whole point of doing the festival was to kind of enable vegans to be in a safe space where they didn't have to put up with this anti vegan messages. So it was it was kind of ironic in a way that that was why it was cancelled. But but the other good thing was the festival the weekend it was due to go ahead and 2019 There was a weekend that had extreme winds that most festivals actually even the main festivals got cancelled. And I know you remember, but it's in the middle of August and our festival would have got cancelled anyway. So in a way, it was kind of like, if it had got cancelled on the weekend, it would have been a lot more catastrophic than getting cancelled three months out, you know, at least we have time sort of process refunds. And we hadn't sold all of the tickets at that point. And so it kind of was a bit of a saving grace. And then I was like quite deflated by all and I did a bit of meditating thinking what can I do? And I started looking for 2024 venues. And I was just struggling I it was so difficult because I didn't want a venue that supported farming in any way. And obviously a lot of outdoor agricultural land has some kind of link to animal agriculture and it was and the ones that don't, then they're growing crops on their land, so you can't exactly hold a festival there. So it's becoming quite difficult. And so funnily enough, I decided, okay, 2020 I'll have a break and I'll just I'll just think about it. Thank God I did again because that would have got cancelled obviously for obvious reasons.

So then I kind of I put it to bed and I started doing other things and I actually started like offering some business advice for a bit and I was a bit of feeling a bit lost about where I was and obviously then lockdown happened and I just kind of kept coming back to my I just want to help vegan kids. So during lockdown, I started these, like online sessions for vegan kids. And I was just doing like, like party, we did start a bit like some Christmas events, and we did craft and it was all on zoom with the kids and it started like it was alone, okay, this is this is working out quite well, this is good. And I guess that's where vegan kids kind of was born, it became this, I want it to be kind of a site where children just come and get advice or can meet other vegans or, you know, whatever it might be. And we run a number of events and provide resources, I want to get into doing a podcast at some point. And this kind of like a one stop shop where vegan kids can can come and feel like they're and also where vegan parents can come and maybe get advice that you know, meet other vegan parents, because I found that that is equally important for vegan parents as well.

Jim Moore 26:00

It can be quite a lonely place to kind of be in a been a vegan parent, obviously, you know, if you're in a in some sort of partnership with somebody, then of course, that makes it slightly easier. But But even then you you know, I don't know about you, but I found at the time, I didn't necessarily have a community of other vegans that I knew who were parents. And so there was a bit of a, okay, we're comfortable with us being vegan. But now there's so much more to navigate. It's like this whole new world opens up I suppose, like with any parent, but there's this extra little complication of the world telling you even more, so the world seems to have an opinion on what you're doing. When you've got a child involved, everyone seems to have an opinion on everything from you know, I'm in the right back in the hospital with the whole kind of formula and think there was a whole discussion with the hospital at the time when when lit was born, and so on, so forth. From there, right through, you have these so this this idea of creating a safe space, like you, like you said, I love that kind of way I'm creating, I wanted to create a vegan world for the, for the weekend. And now that's kind of, you know, expanded out into kind of a bigger community, like, was that very much kind of, on your mind, particularly given the experiences that you mentioned, like with you with, with the kids and so on, and then needing that space just as much as the parents? Was it sort of almost as with that in mind at the beginning, was it kind of evolved into that through to these through to through the cancellations and so on?

Dana Burton 27:25

Oh, it's very much devolved into it? I think. Yeah, I think it was just going to be the festival. Originally, that was that would have been it. And actually, that is enough work for one person. Anyway. I like to take on massive tasks, but it but yeah, and it is, it is so nice to see the kids. And when they're together. And we have obviously the online events we have we have had a few in person meetups now since obviously, we've been allowed to, and it's so nice, because it's not like we kind of go in there and saying, Okay, so we're all vegans, like Alcoholics Anonymous or something. They just, they're just being kids, but they all deep down know that, that the others are vegans. And, you know, and actually on some of our online sessions, the kids that have been there for longer are starting to kind of open up to me, and they're starting to kind of ask questions. And then, and the parents are saying to me, oh, you know, they're more confident at school, and they're being able to, you know, actually stand up a bit for themselves because they're now knowing that they're not the only vegan in the world. And that was very definitely important to me. I wanted my kids to know that they weren't the odd ones out that they weren't the ones that were strange or it wasn't because mommy's a bit strange that she told you that all these things about and then you've gone to school and been told oh no cows don't get her and but don't be silly. You know all of us your mommy's just a bit weird or you know that to happen to then to actually see oh, no, actually there are there's a whole group of people that actually believe in this and and are fighting for it and, and, you know, we started a young activist club as well, which is, you know, helping slightly, obviously, slightly older kids stand up for themselves and think about things that they can do to to help the animals as well and that's quite a cool club to run

Jim Moore 29:20

must be amazing to have, you know, obviously started started with this shop and you know, I want to I'm gonna make an impact through this and then that kind of, you know, then you didn't need to decide to pivot start the festival. I'm thinking well that you know, it's almost like I can see this like escalation of your sense of purpose in the world almost like it's, it feels like you've now like supercharged that kind of like purpose driven mission if you like I don't know if it feels like that without adding too much on to it but it certainly it from the outside looking in, it looks like that.

Dana Burton 29:52

It's been really important to connect up my own values and, and it by ethical ethical consumerism which I guess What really got me into this was, it is a journey and because, you know, unless we go and live in a mud hut, we, we can't be entirely ethical. But we have to kind of pick what's important to us. And I've just kind of been stumbling my own way along that journey. And I have like a real thirst for knowledge. I just love learning stuff. And I just absorb all this information. And like, you know, when I find out about different ethical issues, I think, Okay, I'll go and research that thoroughly and see what I need to do. And, and, you know, and, and obviously, I can't live a completely ethical life, but I pick the bits that are important. I think that's, that's what people need to do, they need to pick, you know, sometimes you see people V vegans, even maybe criticising other vegans for doing X, Y, Zed, but it I think the journey is yourself, and you need to take that journey yourself need to find what issues like for me, number one issue is the animals. And that's what I feel really passionate about. And then, you know, there are other things like I still boycott Nestle, you know, and yeah, and I try and I try and minimise my waist. But you know, I'm not if it if it was down to like a bit of plastic, or eating an animal, then I'm going to, or not eating an animal, and I'm not going to eat the animal. Yeah, and I think it's that journey. And it's been so important for me to align my values with my way of work. And actually, I, I do actually have a full I mean, I homeschool my kids, I've got a full time job. And I'm doing things again. So yeah, it was a bit crazy at the minute but but when I'm in my full time job, I mean, one of the nice things is I drive a lot in my job. So I get to listen to podcasts all day long, which I love, which kind of does also I learn a lot from those. So that kind of kind of feels like I'm still doing my purpose while I'm getting paid. So that's kind of enabling me to do all these other things. And I think yeah, I mean, their dream longer term like you, you've just said, you know, you've managed to step away from the full time job, but I'm, I'm not quite there yet. But that's definitely the dream in the future is to really align myself so that, you know, I've kind of surrounded myself now with the right kind of people that I like, that I think like me that are on the same journey, because I just found that when I'm not with those people, it just, it just depresses me, actually. And I just want to be I just want to be happy, like anyone I guess. And yeah, following this mission and following this purpose. That's what's kind of making me feel like yeah, I have something.

Jim Moore 32:29

Yeah, 100% absolutely do. No doubt, it's, it's an incredible mission. I'd love to get your perspective on it. There's a couple of sort of threads in there that I think I've been playing on my mind for a while. And I'd like to get your view on. So you've got the kind of you mentioned, they're kind of the vegans calling out other vegans and people within the community calling each other out. And I that my mind straightaway jumps to kind of social media culture, and it has wonderful benefits, we learn so much from each other on that space. But there also is that kind of, I don't know, almost trying to like, outdo each other or kind of catch each other out. I find sometimes there's a bit of like, you know, well, you haven't, you know, and sometimes you haven't figured that out yet. And I sometimes think well, I yeah, I haven't, you're right on, you know, thank you for sharing, but I'm just trying to, like figure that out as I go kind of thing. And I'm very conscious of that, you know, that's difficult enough, like we talked about earlier, to navigate as an adult, I'm very conscious of navigating that as a, as a, as a child. And obviously, like, you know, with vegan kids, a lot of work is for the younger kids, like you say, got the older kids with the, the kind of the activism and so on. I'm just conscious of I just, I just love to get your viewpoint really on, on how that how we kind of best navigate that world, not as adults, but also how we best support kind of kids into this space, and appreciate that it's a big old question. But I'd love to kind of just explore it a little bit.

Dana Burton 34:07

I think with my own kids, what I've really done is, I'm quite open, I have these discussions. I mean, my daughter's nine, I have them with her and actually we've we've started recording them. We did one about Halloween, we did it on YouTube, and we just put me in her chatting about Halloween and like, you know, going out trick or treating and what are the, you know, how does she feel about it? And I'm kind of curious to learn from her because, like you say kids are kind of actually really on it. They're actually probably more, you know, they have less influence, I suppose that's gone in to their heads. So they kind of just sort of innocent in a way and I'm quite interested in listening and learning from my own kids. And I think that's really important to do. I mean, they they have, she has such great ideas and even my son even with things like I'll often say to them, you know, what do you think about this and how You know, when, when they are those kind of those controversial issues and I think like with the social media stuff that you were talking about, I, I've just really tried to surround myself with, with the right sort of people on, I've been in toxic groups, you know, if I find myself kind of getting into an argument with someone, and someone wants that to be a very good thing to do is you just reply once and then stuff it, because you could end up getting into these, like, you know, and we've all done it, where you've had like, hundreds of messages. But actually, and since I've started doing that reply once and then quiet, it's a lot easier and, and if I get into a talk, I just, it's just blocked and leave because, you know, you can say your piece, and then I think you don't need I try and surround myself without toxic. I'm trying to reduce toxic people in my life. And I think, you know, it's really important if people aren't, if people aren't willing to be open, if people aren't willing to kind of listen or at then, you know, let them get on with it. I think that's just the most hopefully, they'll I always kind of think I've had, you know, bad dealings with people in the past. And I sort of think, you know, how I'm just hoping that karma is gonna come around and get those people it's not it's not for me to, to, you know, plan their revenge they, they've got to, hopefully they'll get that themselves. So, and, yeah.

Jim Moore 36:19

But I absolutely love that, that viewpoint about bringing, bringing your kids into the conversation and have it, like, just, here's, here's the kind of various arguments, let's talk about them out in the open, like you say, I think kids have got a wonderful sort of sense of kind of right and wrong and almost just see things plainly. There's no baggage of society on them. So I think that's a wonderful point. And as well as the the other point, I think about sort of just remove removing things from your life that don't feel Dave, don't fill you with positivity, like, there's no need, life's too short. I agree. It's kind of one of the reasons I love the podcast format, over over social media and things like this, because it's not, it's not a presentation of one person's viewpoint with no retort or no, it's a kind of a, you know, in the interview format, anyway, it's kind of, to and fro, it's a, it's a learning and it's in his, you know, however long it is, rather than the 140 characters, which, you know, no one can get a decent argument across 140 characters. It's almost like it was designed to cause unrest, but I did. I do. I do wonder sometimes whether we give it too much while I do anyway, so we were that I give it too much power in my life. And the best way to deal with it is I get in the real world and be be just cut, cut, cut certain things out.

Dana Burton 38:02

And of course, kids aren't aren't on social media. So maybe that's why we learned from them. They haven't got all of the all of that going on. So but they I guess they have, they have pressures at school and stuff. Obviously, mind don't really have that anymore, which is kind of useful. So I think well, I'm kind of like, I'm getting to the point now where I'm surrounding myself with just vegans. And maybe that's a bad thing. Because like, every now and again, when I do go out into like the real world, I think Oh, hang on. Yeah. Oh, whoops. It's still like not vegan. But yeah, cuz everything, like all my social media now is just vegan, vegan vegan, and all my friends now pretty much vegan. And it's just kind of like evolved to that. And it's Yeah, I mean, I can't stand being around. Like other people eating meat now, which is weird, because, you know, if I think back to when I was saying about when my husband and I used to get annoyed at going to a restaurant, if I if I if the if he couldn't have something to eat, like I'm gone complete. Like, if you think about that whole journey, and that's only, I mean, I met my husband 13 years ago. So that's what took me over 13 years, that whole journey has completely it's amazing. You know, I know I wouldn't necessarily say I was one of those that was always like, Oh, I'd never be able to be a vegan. But because I'm always quite open to changing my views with with anything really but I don't think I mean, I was a food I was a proper foodie. So I don't I'd like to plan my meals and I love and I remember one person actually once said to me, how can you be can you vegan like Do you not like food? And I was like, No, I actually being vegan now was like, but I thought I'd like it would help my like, you know, figure go vegan but there's just so many products out there now I have to try the ball. I don't know it's so it's like this thing like and I feel like actually now I'm exploring food and much more than I ever was before because I'm trying new things I'm you know, I'm and, and new products and new ways of making things and it's like for me it's like as a foodie, it's like, wow.

Jim Moore 40:13

Yeah, yeah, I share that. Firstly, the bit around. I thought I was going to be wonderfully slim being being vegan, but then I found lots of lots of fantastic foods to counteract that. And to be honest, I'm more than happy with that it's fine. Again, low seashore. But share that viewpoint around. Actually, it just opens up. If anything, it just opens up the world I find, you know, funnily enough, somebody was asking me the other day what, what we gave Arthur for breakfast? And I said, Oh, he has what we have all the applause. Well, we have porridge and we put like chia seeds and pumpkin seeds and peanut butter and blueberries and things like that. And they were like, oh, okay, my kid eats cheery. And I was kind of like, no, no judge in one way or the other. But I was just kind of it just did strike me. I thought, actually, because we're so conscious of A, making sure that he has all of these nutritional, you know, have we got enough omega threes? Have we done this? Or we've done that? That's made us very conscious and probably has made us eat more diversely? And then secondly, it was kind of actually I before going vegan, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have done all of that either. I wouldn't have bothered, you know, I wouldn't have been of interest, particularly because it was kind of like, you just did what everybody else did and didn't give the nutrition a second thought or also some different ingredients like you say, so. It's yeah, I should absolutely share that that view, I think

Dana Burton 41:48

the with with the kids and I think, like, I don't know about you, but I always whenever anything goes wrong with my kids, my first thing is, oh, God, it's because they're vegan. Even though oftentimes, I see my daughter had a condition where she was had to go to hospital. And I was dreading that conversation, it was going to come up, like obviously, at one point where she was like, okay, and her diet and I was like, yeah, she, she's vegan, and she was just really like, okay, and she carried on because actually, the condition had nothing to do with, you know, in my head, and then she went for bloodwork, actually, and it all came back perfect. And I was freaking out about that, as well as thinking, oh my goodness, like the ions gonna, it came back. It's like, everything's fine. And I was like, oh, okay, fine. I can kind of relax about that. And but every time every time I think, and it's because it's so out there, I think that, you know, we hear all this all the time, like, you shouldn't be bringing up your vegan children. You shouldn't be you know, it's bad for them. And all these headline articles that when you actually look at the studies, or, you know, with very small samples, and and then you look at, you know, I just look at my kids, and I think that's either, you know, they look perfectly healthy. I mean, my son who's been vegetarian from birth, he's, I don't think he's ever had a cold. Like, yeah. So, you know, but I don't know why we have this as vegan parents. And I think it probably is just that that overall. The out there in the media that it's wrong to maybe somehow bring up your children's bacon when when we know and obviously now I meet a lot more vegan children I see. And, you know, all of them are healthy, all of them are growing normally. And I see my son's very short, my daughter is very tall. And, you know, sometimes people like you can tell I sort of look at him. And I think you know, you know, is it because he's vegan? And I'm like, but look at my daughter sees family.

Jim Moore 43:47

So strange, isn't it? We wouldn't even think to question even as vegans, I don't think I'd question somebody else's, you know, child having a cold or being not very well having a condition or being short or whatever. I wouldn't ever think I was probably because of their diet wouldn't occur to me, but yet, like you, I absolutely. That's the first thing that pops into my head, like, Am I doing the right thing? Perhaps they were all right. Even though I know, I know. Logically. Everything I've read, I know, we're probably more studied than most of the other parents that we that we surround ourselves with. I certainly you know, I think back to my own upbringing, and yet my parents were fantastic. They think of me wrong, but we absolutely went vegan and obviously no child of the 80s and often say to my other half like we I don't think I ever used sunblock like as a kid that might just be my house. But let alone anything else. Like we just, it was just like the door was open and then you go, you come back, having eaten whatever you've eaten junk, whatever, you've drunk and you come back when the sun goes down. Maybe that's an indictment on my upbringing, but but certainly I just think you know in it Almost comes back to, I guess, social media, modern culture, all the other things, which is so aware of everything, you know, there's almost so much information that it kind of gets in our heads a little bit like you say, it again goes back to this get out in the real world see some other parents or vegan kids and you're probably like, actually, or even just look at your own kids, your free fine. Seems, seems fine to me full of energies, you know? Why question it?

Dana Burton 45:26

Yeah. And like you say, I mean, do do non vegan parents, you know, I give my kids chia seeds, like you. And, you know, because I've looked at all the nutrition, right? You know, even like things like seaweed and, you know, really healthy fish, spirulina. All this smoothies and things and you think probably other kids are eating like burgers and chips, or McDonald's or something like that. And, you know, their diets are probably far less healthy. And I don't know why we worry so much, because actually, probably our kids are probably actually really healthy.

Jim Moore 46:00

Yeah, definitely. I didn't know what chia seed was when I was growing up. I swear they've just been invented. It it's an interesting one. Absolutely. I would just want to go back there onto onto a subject you were talking about a while ago, because I'm really interested in this as well. They're kind of the, the stance we take with, with companies, the the world in which we find ourselves with sort of, you know, you create a vegan bubble around, you've done very much the same sort of thing. Insofar as all the unconscious sometimes all the media I see is something about veganism. So I often feel like we're probably, I feel like everybody's talking about a certain subject when and then I go out and speak to somebody who's not in that world. And they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. So they're not talking about so. And then secondly, I think you can often give yourself a false sense of progress, you can think, Oh, we're moving things forward because of x, y, and Zed. But sometimes the things that I see held up as progress, really concern me. So I see like, Nestle, I've got a new kick cow. And I see like that being a post on certain like, you know, news sites, vegan news sites as like, as this is the sign of like, we're moving forward because Nestle have like, chosen to bring out his product or McDonald's have got a new burger. And I kind of think it's, I see, I see really progress. I don't I don't know. And, and I can be swayed one way or the other. I generally, I feel like it's not as probably my overall position. But I, I then have these conversations with people where they say, Well, you know, if it's not in the face of somebody who's not vegan, then you know, then, you know, how are we going to move things forward, blah, blah, blah, doesn't mean that you need to have it all that sort of thing. I'd love to get your viewpoint. I'm always interested in people's perspective on this particular subject. So I'd love to get yours.

Dana Burton 47:58

Yeah, I mean, I, the way I think about it is, you know, I think it is progress, because these companies are now I mean, even like I say, four years ago, did you even hear the word vegan? Like it's on? It's on advert? Like, you know, I remember the first time I saw vegan mentioned on a TV advert and I draw nearly hit the floor. I was like, Yeah, talking about veganism. And in the more people that bring out these bars, it's it can only be a good thing for veganism. I think. You know, it doesn't mean that I have to buy it because I still boycott Nestle. I still boycott Coca Cola, I still boycott Mars, and, and I still boycott McDonald's. And that's, that's been like a longer term thing for me than veganism. So I'm unlikely to change that. I mean, if if they I've kind of like, had this debate recently, because McDonald's obviously, we've just recently bought out the burger, haven't they? And I'm kind of thinking, like, because my kids, you know, I think I should, I should I've taken them to McDonald's, because like, it was always a thing for us. Like, they haven't been to Matt, we've never been to McDonald's. And I do sort of thing I think they're gonna be like, but at least now if they do decide when they're teenagers, and they've got their money to spend, at least they've got an option that they can eat. So you know, it's, it's only it can only be a good thing. And the more like, if you look at places like Tesco is now like, Tesco is would have been a place that I wouldn't have shopped in. But they've got so much vegan stuff. Now I'm kind of starting to be like, Oh, maybe, maybe I should start you know, buying and supporting this stuff. And it is so difficult because like I say this, there is no ideal world where everything. And I think that's where you have to kind of tick off the things that are important to you. And I think the crimes that Nestle coke and Mars and McDonald's have done to the world, I think, fail far outweigh any vegan product that I can bring out. But that's just my personal view. I wouldn't if someone wanted if a vegan wanted to eat McDonald's or it doesn't have I don't have a problem with it. But I would have a problem with someone going to eat a number Problem product. That does bother me because that that's like, for me, that's, that's my main issue at the minute. And I think that he and I think I know what you mean, it's difficult. And you do see these people kind of, you know, palm oils and other one. And I actually, you know, I have quite strong views on palm oil, I've done quite a lot of research into palm oil, because this came up a lot in my shop. And you know, palm oil is not the problem is the way that it's farmed. And, you know, the KitKat, Nestle is not the problem, it's the way that Nestle operate. You see what I mean? Yeah, it's, it's not, it's, it's the, and it's, and it's making these companies change. And whether we ever will get to the point where they start thinking more ethically, I think they are to some extent, you know, you do hear things, and I don't know how much of it is kind of this greenwashing. A lot of the time, but, but maybe people are starting to wake up a bit more. And as that momentum picks up, and, you know, even just seeing the adverts on television is is a good thing for some people, because at least most people probably know what veganism is now. Whereas I remember when I first was vegan, and I'd walk into a shop, and I'd like to do by any chance have any products, when I was sort of a bit scared of it all and, and, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, we've got like a cheese lasagna. And I would Oh, no. Okay, I won't have anything to eat then. So, it can only be a good thing that these companies are spreading the vegan message for us? And that's kind of my, my view, I think.

Jim Moore 51:33

Yeah, I think we're not when I'm on a sort of particularly optimistic view of the world, I think of it as, you know, these come these companies have kind of given have created their own Trojan horse for people to then go away from them, when perhaps that's a bit abstract, but I kind of think, you know, I have this, this sort of vision of, you know, somebody picks up a cat cat, because they can now and they think are try this, that prompts them into the what's the word vegan mean, etc. And, you know, maybe three or four years down the line, they're boycotting Nestle. Because they're kind of like, actually, I've now looked into all this stuff. And I've figured out that that's not the way to the way to go. So yeah, when I'm when I'm in my more optimistic mode, so I feel like that. But yeah, on other on other occasions, I kind of think about the kind of consumerism thing I kind of think, you know, this is this is them, growing their overall market share, getting another piece of a different market, there wasn't coming anywhere near them before. So it's not converting anyone, it's just getting some more people they weren't getting before, but then that's my, you know, that's the sort of devil on my shoulder, I guess I go one way or the other. Depending on the day of the week, these products

Dana Burton 52:51

exist, I guess, it's potentially taking more products like that now that has been kicked out and a non vegan kick cat, maybe more. I mean, maybe it's not just the vegans, and I think there's evidence to show that not just vegans buy these products. So, you know, there is that, and maybe all the tickets are sold out. So they have to dry them. In a way. I mean, like you say, like, when I'm thinking more optimistically, I'm thinking or it's taking away. It's kind of, I mean, it'd be nice if it was actually replacing because a lot of time, well, okay, so dairy, dairy, Cadbury's have made that, that bar as well. And you think, well, if they can do that, and make that taste really good, and I've tried, I've tried some of these alternatives. And I can't mean, I can't tell the difference all the time. Maybe that's just because I've so far down the journey now. But yes, I think if I can do that, just just do it in all the products we don't want to see do obviously prove we don't need milk. Like, Yeah, take that out. Don't even call them vegan, you know.

Jim Moore 53:51

Now you're right. I think about that with all the accidentally vegan stuff I kind of think well so these companies didn't didn't decide there's no pitch there, they just thought well, I'll make this out of whatever ingredients is the probably the cheapest to make this thing and to make it taste good. Thinking Oreos or whatever, well, they got the palm oil in them and all the rest of it but but you know, let's just pretend that that issue doesn't exist or part of that for a minute. But if you take the kind of Oreo that the Oreo piece they didn't ever set out to be creating a vegan product but but they kind of have and they've and so they're kind of like everywhere and everyone loves it and they don't consider most people don't who aren't vegan don't consider it whether it's vegan or not. They don't care they just eat it. So yeah, I think there's a bit of an argument it's a bit like going back to the nursery thing you know, this was the conversation out but the nursery is like you've got all these kids with all these different you know, the little one over there who needs a halau meal this child needs a kosher meal this child's got a gluten not gluten sir particularly going to be solved by veganism but you know that there's all these different requirements is the counterpoint and Like there is there's one particular option that you could pick that might help a lot of kids out. And actually, they've, they've kind of heard that. So you do wonder whether kind of companies will get to that point as well, whether they think if we can take people down this road enough where they're just, you know, they're, they're cool with it, I wonder if we could substitute it out. Because there must be a, I wonder if there's a cost implication for them as well, whether it's actually like on scale, whether it actually be cheaper, but it must

Dana Burton 55:27

be if you think like, if you're growing, if you just take out milk for an example. I mean, yeah, to grow a cow to get off to the cow to do the whole process and to actually keep that product fresh. As opposed as opposed to growing some oats in your garden, which actually anyone can do. You know, it can't be more expensive. Like there's, there's no way that that process and actually all day. I mean, it's well documented that dairy farmers are losing money all the time. So it's like, I sometimes think of that look at that and think what is going on like and why is more expensive? I mean, I know obviously the subsidies and stuff but like why it should be a lot cheaper. Like we should be able to get it for 20 P properly. And I mean, it is coming. It's coming down in price, isn't it? But

Jim Moore 56:16

I definitely do wonder that because it's like that's everything else has gone down in my food bill. And but it has it has kind of imbalanced out a little bit. Maybe I drink too much coffee with a lot of oat milk in it. But yeah, my oatmeal bill is pretty phenomenal. If I think about it too much it scares me. I try not to

Dana Burton 56:37

eat cheeseburgers. Another one that's quite spicy. Like suddenly started really liking vegan cheese now so

Jim Moore 56:48

yeah, yeah, I'm with the, with the times getting away with this, but it'd be be remiss of us not to tell everybody where to go and find you and vegan vegan kids and, and learn a bit more and hopefully get involved.

Dana Burton 57:00

Yeah, so look us up. We are vegan hyphen kids.org On the website, and you can find us on Instagram, which is vegan kids, UK and on Facebook, which is just being kids. And you can also look us up on the festival website, which is being kids festival.co.uk. So next year, we are we are going ahead with the first festival and actually we found an amazing venue. And, and everyone's we're all ready and set and we've really sold about 25% of the tickets for that. So it's going to be a great it's a three day two night camping event down by Bournemouth, that's going to be really exciting. So you can look that up as well. Yeah, get in touch with we're really, you know, keen to hear from anyone who wants to kind of work with us or help kids or any ideas for we know what events we can get involved in or anything like that we're kind of I'm kind of very open to the becoming a sponge and just doing whatever it takes.

Jim Moore 58:04

Love it, love it. Well, we'll get all the links in the show notes and if I don't see before, I'll definitely see you down there next next year because Bournemouth is not a million miles away. So I'll be down be down there with the little one. Yeah. Thanks so much Donna. Thanks for that.