Therapy Twins

Therapy Twins

Sat, 5/15 2:50PM • 58:13

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

eat, people, vegan, diet, patient, thought, therapist, called, protein, depression, jane, animal, uk, sleep, talk, mental health, plant, veganism, john, anti inflammatory diet

SPEAKERS

Jane, Jim Moore, Joan

00:17

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding and hopefully yours. Of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. This week is Episode 82. And I'm going to be joined by the therapy twins, Joan land Dino and Jane Barclay are the therapy twins, they're identical twin sisters, licenced caregivers, and speakers authors and basically incredibly wise individuals who have adopted a vegan lifestyle over the course of years. And yeah, we have a really free ranging discussion really, obviously we talk a little bit about therapy but and and obviously veganism but modern society in particularly in in the West and in in the States and its impacts on mental health you know, whether it be through the food we eat, the media, we consume all these kinds of things. So it's like a free ranging and hopefully it's not too lofty a word philosophical kind of conversation. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and john and Jane, the therapy twins

Joan  01:59

we started with john Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even I started being a militant vegan. I am no longer a militant vegan I was and I think I started late though around age 35. I was vegetarian even read the book by john Robbins diet for a new America and I still wouldn't even it didn't hit me about the dairy and I continued to eat dairy I think for almost 10 more years and then full vegan since 19 92,003 95. Vegetarian 2003 vegan good and I made my entire family miserable at every holiday and get together by pointing everything out yeah because Joan used to ask me all the time Why was I going vegan and and sometimes I would say you mean plant based and you know she wanted it to be 100% about the animals and I said you know, it's a lot about the animals but for health reasons too. You know, we are nurses and we thought I thought for health reasons it would be good as well. She when she was in her militant phase that was not an okay answer, but it is now it everything actually everything's okay. And even if people go at a slower pace I know people get intolerant of that. But as long as you're going in that direction, I think it's good unless I worked at the slaughterhouse sorry I would it would be closed and I would be arrested

Jim Moore  03:33

so your your your initial start was off off the back of kind of an animal activists angle and the health bit came later

Joan  03:41

yes yeah. I wish surprised at the health I I didn't even know that there was a health benefit because of course I high fructose corn syrup. Yeah, even though I was deagan I was like high fructose corn syrup being in so I continued to eat that for a while as well. But yeah, I mean, even my body shape shifted. I was blown away. I was. Well I think we were both heavy, heavy thigh and our ourselves speak for ourselves. My arms were as thin as like the microphone thing. And I always wore long sleeves and I used to lie and tell everybody oh I'm freezing because I would never show my arms and being vegan. My arms became a normal size notice I won't show them and my thighs became thinner. It was bizarre. No, it was nice. I mean that's not that help with a healthy one of the one of the better things that I think that happened to both of us because so we were five foot nine at our tallest five, five foot nine inches you can figure that one out. And then we were meat eaters growing up and eating you know processed foods and we shrunk by a quarter of an inch. Yeah. And then a year or so into being vegan. We both gained that height back. We Yeah, of course the western medicine doctors don't believe you but we know because our dad was a carpenter and he measured us incessantly. Really? Yeah, yes we got our bone density back.

Jim Moore  05:12

Ah, I see. I see so this was a bone density thing. Yeah, that's fascinating. I've never heard anybody say they got taller because of veganism there's another benefit we should add to the list.

Jane  05:23

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because our father kept shrinking hmm Yes, I mean towards the end of their life they were vegan but he didn't know he was vegan our mom knew yeah yeah just feed yeah he shrunk but yeah we I was upset that I gained it back I never wanted to be five nine I liked Kate Moss five seven ish people's and still not look like Godzilla. But anyway yeah, I was bummed but I'm okay. Yeah, gaining the height back and then there's all that literature about within minutes of eating a burger, your arteries are more stiff and your blood pressure might be getting higher etc your immune system might even be affected and then when you go plant based how goes that those things can start reversing so there truly are lots there's lots of literature about being plant based and health

Jim Moore  06:15

and from the you know, coming at it from the your backgrounds within therapy, mental health, etc. How I know I'm cautious to say how closely linked is you know, plant based diet and, and the mood etc. Because I can imagine like, just like you alluded to there, you could go high, high fructose corn syrup, only claim you're vegan, and and probably not feel all of the benefits from a mental health standpoint and, and your mood and all the rest of it. But is there an intrinsic link between a plant based diet and good mental health in your experiences?

Jane  06:56

Absolutely. There's peer reviewed journal articles about inflammation. So everything's about inflammation now, and with depression, they're saying you have inflammation within your body. So if you heard of Dr. SEBI, he has this whole diet he calls it electrical. Western medicine says it's an anti inflammatory diet for your health. We call it by its I'll speak for myself. I call it alkaline. Just go back Ross bridge Ford, from the UK. I have him he calls it alkaline diet. Well, Dr. SEBI calls it an electrical diet. And if you compare the three diets very similar, and it's plant based, so it doesn't include high sugar. So you want to leave the high dose corn syrup? Oh, but definitely when people change their diets, we've had patients drop out of treatment, because I don't I feel so much better. And you know, maybe it's not that clinical case. But even suicidal, I mean, you can change. Well, I can I'll just speak for myself good. I love to share that I suffered from depression, even as a kid, and I was an absolute sugar addict, I was trying to think go over, like, what was I eating as a kid and maybe the peanut butter but but it had high fructose corn syrup or hydrogenated oils in it. So no, my diet was terrible growing up. And it wasn't until I started changing my diet that I started noticing that my eyes were different, horrible depression, they didn't dip as far in. And also you get that little bit of motivation now to get some treatment. But one of the things I like like to tell people because everybody wants science, you know, nobody wants, they want, you know, Western medicine to fix everything from science. Well, the huge topic right now in the states and probably in the UK, is the gut brain connection. Yes. And and of course, the Asian culture had it 1000s of years ago that they said the GI system was the most important organ. And right now when I think back on the stuff I ate, I realised that I was starving, the good bacteria balance in my gut. And what happens is the bad bacteria you don't want are going to thrive. And then how are you going to communicate with the entire body. If for example, I don't know if people know this, but there are many more serotonin receptors below the neck than there are above the neck. And with the gut brain discussion, they're finding out that the serotonin, dopamine and etc. They're produced on higher amounts in your gut. And if you don't have healthy serotonin, for example, and somebody gives me Prozac, I could take all the Prozac in the world but it does, it's not going to be able to act Upon this very unhealthy and limited supply of serotonin Yeah, so we got to feed that God and that's the fibre rich foods in our plant based diets in veganism.

10:16

So talking about the fibre rich you know what the fibre rich diet what is the kind of the key building blocks of a healthy plant based diet from a point of view of kind of that gut brain connection and and and protecting your mental health?

Joan  10:33

Well, you know, fruits and vegetables, of course, and everybody thinks that when you say you're vegan, they say you know what they love to say. They say I like salad too. Yeah, but they say I hate so I like salad too. And Joan's response, which I absolutely love because Joan, it has always been last thing I'm gonna wait, she's never had to diet and her entire life. And she says I hate salads. So yes, we want our fruits and our vegetables. But it seems like some of these fad diets nowadays are saying no carbs, and we love carbohydrates. White processed stuff is not good for you. But one of the things that's going to feed that good bacteria are your healthy grains, and legumes. And there are so many diets that are taking grains and legumes out of their diet and they're just starving. They're actually starving to death and there are obese they are obese Americans walking around their hair is extremely unhealthy. You know they're starving. Yes, they're they're literally hungry, yet they're obese. And that's what's wrong. It's also wrong. You know, What I don't like is when people say you have I'm gonna eat the real food. I'm eating the real food. Don't say that's the fake, whatever they say it's fake, fake whatever I can Yeah, I can't I have intolerance for that I actually have to take a pill or something to chill, right? Go to

11:59

you know, in sort of Western culture, certainly in the UK, I'm sure it's exactly the same in the US. We are very quick to diagnose and medicate. All kinds of conditions, you know, whether their mental, physical, whatever that is our number one, you know, support Big Pharma. Like is the root? That's what we do? How far away? Do you think you know, we are from establishing that a good part of any prognosis and treatment for a patient is their diet?

12:42

Oh, boy, Can I just tell you a story that one of our jobs, I'll just say it's John's ex husband, he's been one of our colleagues and still still a friend. So anyway, just to give you an example of how long it takes Western medicine, or conservative doctors, in general, nurses, etc. So it took 10 years in this country, plus the death of President McKinley. And he died of sepsis. So a blood bacteria. It took 10 years plus the death of that President for the United States, the American Medical Association to say, do you think they should pay attention to what they're doing over in Britain? And you know what it was? Hand washing. The spread of disease? Yeah, hand washing, we're far. We're a punitive country, and doctors will laugh in your face, including my face, even though I'm in the profession, I'm in the medical profession. They'll laugh and just say good luck with that, or they just don't even believe that with a vegan diet that I could be this healthy. I really believe. I don't know what they think. So at age, approximately 55, I fell down a flight of stairs that were not carpeted at all. I didn't break anything. And I didn't fracture anything. So I go to the doctor, and she's like, oh, Jane, I can't believe it, given your age above a button. And I looked at her. And I said, but I'm but I'm vegan. And she put her hand in my face. She didn't want to hear about it. Yep. So even though it's in your face, you know, you can show the results. It changes so hard. But you know, when I noticed just recently that Jane, Harvard so we have Harvard and we have Yale in New England that are like the Red Sox and the Yankees. I don't know how to compare it in Britain. I don't know if it's Oxford and

Jane  14:44

Cambridge. Yeah, here you go.

14:48

So a lot of times what we watch is if Harvard comes up with something Yale poo poos it and vice versa, right? You know, cuz you know, everyone wants to have come up with it themselves. Well, Harvard has a specialty Now called nutritional psychiatry. So let's let the games begin and I think they're gonna start. I hope it doesn't take 10 years. Yeah, I know

15:11

what why do you think this is then that there's this massive disconnect? Is it as simple as is not? It's not profitable to talk about eating fruit and vegetables?

15:22

Not only is it not profitable it you know, that whole mentality of it's the way we always did it. My grandparents did it. They lived until they were 100. You know it people don't want to, like addiction, you know, no one wants to get addicted to heroin by themselves, they get weirded out and you can almost see it. It's addictive behaviour where they're like, you eat meat, right? Oh, yeah. And they just they want to know what people are you they need each other. And they really do need each other. And the way you see the ugliest behaviour is in groups. And that's why every so often, like I had a photo fake first scarf on. And I put it on Facebook as a new profile picture. And I went to bed and the next day, there were 80 comments and I thought, oh my god, and everybody must love my new picture. And it's good. I was screamed at about being a fake vegan, because they said if you're going to wear a foe first scarf, you're encouraging other people to wear real firm. And I thought, you know, I occasionally have a veggie burger. But that doesn't mean I'm encouraging somebody to eat that though. People will come up with anything to protect their culture and tradition. Well, how it always has been. But yes, I think it's because if you paid attention to food, which remember Hippocrates said, Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food. And all of a sudden, we're Pooh poohing all of this, but it's the pharmaceutical industries which don't get me wrong, I I've taken medication and will continue in the future if I need it. But the big corporations that for example, you know, who made the, you know, mess out of corn in this country who made the mess with hydrogenated oils, etc. The, it's all money, follow it, you know, I looked at baby formula. When one of our nieces had had a baby, I just happened to pick up the formula just to look. And the first ingredient was corn syrup solids. Like, what is that? And why are we giving it to babies? Yeah. But yeah, there's no profit. And then we as Americans need PhDs in food, right? And nutrition to read a label. But we want everything now. And we want it yesterday, we want to pick up our phone, order something and then we want somebody to deliver it within five minutes, we are trained to want immediate gratification. So when you talk to a patient, about their diet, and you're going to lose them. And so there's I hope this nutritional psychiatry specialty from Harvard is going to find some trickery to get people engaged in changing what they eat.

18:12

You've both obviously made this connection yourselves you've and I take it that none of that has come from your formal learning. Or has it it was that was there any room for more?

18:29

I was very undergrad I was very interested in a nutrition class. But you know what? I didn't even believe them. Because they told me that watermelon was useless. And corn was useless. And I disagree. You know, the Native Americans? I don't know. 1000s of them. Hundreds of 1000s of them lived on corn. So what are you telling me it's useless for? And watermelon is loaded with water. And we need that. You know, so yeah, I think you're right. What what I think helped us was maybe the science learning the microbiology and all of that. So when we got interested, we kind of read some of this information and understand it, but john Robbins book, like he spelled it out it I didn't realise it was that cool, because when we were young, I mean, the commercials were, we were born in 1960. The commercials were these cartoons of animals, insulted if you didn't eat them. And you know, it was constantly in your face. And the connection was so bizarre. I was blown away at age 35. I remember and I didn't make the connection of dairy. Oh, because down the street when we were young, sorry. I'd finished that thought there were cows and the farmer he always milk them by hand and they pet them and they roamed free and we got to pet them if we wanted to, and it didn't look like it her. And I was actually blown away that right within 10 minutes of our house. I heard cows screaming and that was about six years ago. And I finally found out from a friend that it was a dairy farm. And it was good girls were being milked. So I mean, when Jane says we'll lose a patient when you talk about diet, we will. But I always found a way to throw in even if it was like a little bit of a joke that I would say, I was reading the other day everybody's mad at China, because they any animal dogs and cats, but you know, America eats women and children. What's up with that? And I'd leave people to think about that, because nobody eats a bowl, or a rooster, or they eat veal, the wild boar I mean, somebody might feel chickens are killed at a very young age. And then the girls after five years, they're not ready to be milked anymore, and they go to slaughter. So basically, it's women and children. Yeah. And then they say China's barbaric. Hello, look in the mirror. Sorry. See, we need Jane as a buffer. James a big

21:04

No, no, you go for it, I'm with you. Thinking of that particular train of thought, just because we're there. And when we were talking about, as you mentioned that, you know, the the view of other cultures around the world and thinking about the last 12 months in particular. And there's been an easy shorthand, in probably in the US, it's certainly in the UK to say this pandemic is because of Chinese culture, not because of animal agriculture, there's been a very clear distinction between those two, it's like, it's because of eating bats is because of eating pangolins is because, you know, it's because of this because of wet markets. And I spoke to somebody recently who lives in New York, and she was sharing with me the number of live animal markets that she comes across on a daily, you know, walk around the this parts of the city. Do you think there is any, any pocket of that connection being made with animal agriculture? And this pandemic, in in US culture from what you've seen? Or is it that disconnect is right there?

22:12

Now complete? disconnect? The only thing I've seen, of course, it's john oliver. Yeah. john oliver. He talked about I'm not even sure. I think it was the pandemic and I watched like 20 minutes or so. And I called john I said, he said it he said the words farm animal agriculture, or factory farming, instead of everybody else skirts around the issue. And in this country, I mean, we have a range of it's only the cars, or the air conditioners, all the way to for global warming, all the way to only God can change the weather. I mean, that's what we have, like, whoo hoo, you know, there's a push to change, and on and on. And I'm a little religious, but I can say that I find that ridiculous. I just read there's several politicians in this country, they want to push for the school system, the curriculum to go back to when we were young, you we didn't didn't listen to the way we were taught. The kid was an exchange student from Japan. And he said, How do I know more history than all of you put together? And it was embarrassing. So June, from from Japan knew about our history, and it was very bothersome as we grew up. It wasn't until college that you actually started learning things. Because in in the small towns of the United States, it gets ugly. Yeah, it gets ugly, no one what we learned one of the other things today, and I would like to say, once again, I believe in pharmaceuticals when you need them, and I will, you know, we just got vaccinated, you know, for COVID. So I totally believe in that, but I just don't believe that it's the it's the 100% solution. And what we have now is the pharmaceutical industry has their foot into medical schools, I'm sure big, big corporations, big businesses do with you know, oh, these are the best gloves and masks and gowns right now. And, and then the dairy industry and just our FDA the things that we walk, it's really a shame and until you take the whole dollar out of all of these equations, it's very difficult to engage a person in eating more healthfully, because I want to say something, it was around 19. I want to say 1980. Maybe it was maybe closer to 90, but the New Haven register the newspaper, had a joint study of Yale and Harvard. And they said that it was a study of 25 years and they both determined that eating processed meats, lead to cancer, and then it was never heard from for another 20 or 30 years, even when the World Health Organisation said, Please let's go plant based otherwise the world will not be able to sustain itself. Oh, it was in this tiny little area on the bottom Back Page somewhere, we're no one would have seen it. So I think that unless it goes mainstream, you're actually made fun of if you if you're vegan, if you're a man, then you're vegan. Oh, they'll call you a pussy. Oh, you are nothing you're a girl. Even though you won't have the sexual dysfunction, and every client I had was getting younger and younger. And it's like, really? How old are you now they were 35 years old asking for Viagra 35 you should be at your mind, well, maybe not for men. But you have sexual dysfunction. So you know, they didn't want to hear it. It's all about circulation. But you know, in this country, I want to hear in the middle of the grocery aisles, which which really means processed foods. And we have tonnes of processed foods. The literature's out that the corporation's made it so that it was an addiction, you know that you would keep coming back for more. And I mean, I lived it, I was such a, I would have coffee, light and sweet, I would have a cake with heavy frosting, that would be my breakfast, I might have those processed peanut butter crackers at lunch, and then dinner. If I ate something healthy, I still would eat like the rest of the cake. afterwards. I went I one time when I was a kid. And it was such an addiction. It was crazy, but nobody spoke of at night. So I didn't talk to me because I didn't know, I ate an entire bag of many candy bars. I mean, $1,000 bars, I got sick, don't get me wrong, but I ate the whole bag. It's amazing that eating disorders, thank goodness weren't totally invoked back then, because I would have had one.

27:06

You know, because I really, you know, the few times I vomit and in my life, it's not like a scary thing for me. And so again, thank goodness, because we have a visitor now. Yeah. And you know, what I want to say is a lot of our clients always talked about weight because Jane and I are thin, or whatever we are. And they would say john, I want to talk to Jean about how to lose weight. And I would say but why aren't you going to talk to me about it? Not only am I your therapist, I'm thinner than she. They didn't want to hear it. They all knew I was vegan. And it was almost as if it was impossible to fat like Joan, it's not even that hard to eat. I want to say to people it's as difficult to eat as when you eat me. But I find it to be easier because I'm not so I'm germaphobic like when animal flesh was in my apartment, I thought it was disgusting, you would you have to drown it in orange juice just to get the stench out. And you know what, it's gross, it only brings up a point. I mean, I was a shader. So I went I went vegan, I was only primarily vegan. And basically that meant that in the very beginning, if I wanted to go have eggs, I would do that, you know, whatever. So what I'd like to tell people is they don't have to switch from today to tomorrow to the you know, whole food plant based 100% healthy, you can be primarily for a while, you can just you know, you could start with breakfast and just change your your cow's milk, to oat milk, I mean, there's just you can make a change, and it doesn't have to be overwhelming. But remember, if you're in therapy for 10 years, change is so difficult, they only want to change like really you got to find a new therapist, like goes for not changing here, you know, like I'll try to change it up. There's the door. We're teasing, teasing, we're just burned out. We're really good therapists

29:01

talking to that point. And you mentioned that it's really difficult for people to you know, listen to the dietary advices you know from their therapist that they'd rather that you said well don't do just take this and you'll feel a lot better do you think in the world author no appreciate this I'm sure there's like a you know, I'm sort of sorority fraternity of therapists I don't want you to, you know, feel like you need to slay any, any other therapist. But is there a probably a reluctance from therapists to say anything that might be deemed controversial to their client, like, talk about your diet because they might lose, lose customers, you know, is that is that in people's minds or not?

29:48

Well, one of the things is, well, at least in our training, as therapists you're really not supposed to tell anyone what to do. And even if they ask you, you know, you might want to explore why they're even asking you before you would ever give. You know, one of the one of the worst nightmares for a therapist is when the patient comes in the following weekend says, Jane, I did what you told me to do. And I'm like, Oh, my God, what did I just like, you know, oh, I broke up with my boyfriend. And I'm thinking, I never said that, no. But when you get to the point, now, the single number, when you get to the part where they are willing to start making some changes in their life, so you've gotten them a notch out of that depression, or a notch, lower anxiety, etc, or they're not manic anymore, you know, and you start talking about healthy lifestyles, definitely you start exploring what they eat, how do they feel? And that's when you do it, like john was saying, you know, I found that, well, quite a few actually, finally said it, you know, maybe two, they just wanted Viagra. But a lot of the guys were the ones that said, you know, what, john, I'm ready. And they would want like, when we were at the grocery store, they'd want us to show them pictures of what, because I'll eat some processed vegan foods, but you know, ingredients. And, you know, whatever soy protein isolate is, I don't want your isolate at all, unless I'm going to take a vitamin that I choose. I don't like the word isolate, don't give it to me. But, you know, in Canada, like when the food was really easy to buy, and he, you know, I could easily tell dudes because they want to know, you know, I need something easy, I want to be able to be plant based and easy. Well, it's not that easy in the United States, because we have a lot of soy protein isolate, and concentrate. And in our poorer neighbourhoods, which are brown and black, for the most part, there's a significant lead decreased availability, or access to real food. And I mean, we've seen that in documentaries, where it's believed that that is done on purpose. And I would hope that it's not true, but it seems like it is true. So the poor people don't have access, not just to medical care, etc. But they are not, they don't have access to organic, they don't have access to real fruits and vegetables, a lot of processed stuff is right there. Because they're going to convenience stores. A lot of times there's no bus route, there's not even a bus line. Yeah, to a real grocery store. So remember, when people are poor, and a lot of our clients were poor, you can also do you know, rice and beans to start, you know, you don't have to have a tonne of money to be vegan. You You don't. Yeah, get real food.

32:38

But there's almost this or not even almost there. Is this sort of systematic by design the these deserts if you like food deserts, yeah. talking, talking of that this systematic kind of by design and nature of that. And I want to go back to this point around. You mentioned about the sort of distrust of science yet the desire to medicate, there's a kind of, there's an irony in that and a kind of a paradox, and so on so forth. And and obviously, the the right, there's been a battleground in the US and still is, and there is in the UK to between the kind of, quote unquote, right and left. And I sometimes look at this and wonder, are they you know, I just looked at recently, for example, that there's been a massive bailout for dairy and the Dairy and Meat industries in the States. Some huge number within the billions from the the Biden ministration. Now, I wonder whether there's an element of in the, in the left, that we can say we, that, that, you know, me from that perspective, we can think, well, the job's done, because Trump's not in office anymore. So things are, things will be all great and rosy from here on in. And actually people can switch off and become complacent. And, and, and not keep, I suppose fighting some of these inequalities in certain groups, would you say that it's true, or or is that not necessarily the ultimately, the system? Is it the two sides of actually the same coin? Just

34:22

right, I, I have a theory and it's just a theory, and I could be dead wrong. But I believe that we have these two major parties that go out for drinks after they have screwed a lot of the country. So I believe that they each each party will say, yeah, I'm going to do a little of this. I'm going to do a little of that. And they keep us fighting. I mean right now, I mean, it's been the worst since with Trump versus Biden. The worst I've ever heard. I mean, we have I've known people that you know, one one, the wife is over. publican, the husband's a Democrat, I mean, you have siblings that everybody got along and more recently worse in the United States. It's gotten very hateful. And I think it's one big soap opera, they've got us fighting, so that we are distracted so that they can just these big, big money, whoever it follows the dollar, follow the dollar, and you're gonna keep dumping in oceans, they're gonna keep bailing out, for example, you know, the dairy industry, you notice that was not the major news. I don't even know that I didn't even hear that. So thank you for telling

35:34

us what's going on in the UK?

35:37

On a major news, the end if it was it was at the very end when the music started or something. Yeah, I mean, welcome to capitalism. It's just, it's sad. And they try it was an excellent idea, you know, to have the money at the top trickle down. But the greed for money, we all know, just this, I guess, is the root to all evil.

36:01

To talk in the route to money. I'm thinking the veganism has become I'm reluctant to say popular but it's certainly grown. I think the numbers like three or four fold in the last 10 years and that kind of thing. Like it's, there's there's some big growth. But with that, as come, you know, you talk about soy isolate, and so on. There's big there's become a lot of processed food, which people in the in the quote unquote, vegan community are heralding as, isn't this brilliant This is it does that kind of thing. worry you. I mean, obviously, that sort of, you know, the animals win in that regard. And that's brilliant, you know, as as an animal activist sort of First, I think that's, that's fantastic. from an environmental standpoint, I hope that, you know, that the impact is still as as great I'm sure is, but I worry from a health point of view, we're just storing up a new problem. What, I'd love to get your perspective on that?

37:03

Absolutely. What has grown here we, we, as nurses know that too much protein will kill and will overload and kill your kidneys? Why are there kidney dialysis facilities in almost every strip mall, that was rare back in the day, so we knew that too much protein, and the misunderstood Atkins diet would kill your kidneys. So every nurse knows that when you have patients that have compromised kidneys, every nurse knows the diet to discuss with the patient and at the anti inflammatory diet is a low protein, and among other things, like low potassium, stuff like that, but we don't know it. And so if we know it, doctors know it. So yes, and they'll never lose the money. The people that are making the money right now, they're not going to lose their money. So the soy protein isolate is this bulk powder form and all I view it as a hamster in a wheel to my liver. I don't want that in my body. It's going to overload Mike. Kidney, you just I don't like when people say Oh, it's so much easier now. Now I can just like I couldn't date somebody who was just eating soy protein isolate, just as I couldn't date anybody that was eating just me. I mean, we don't see you. But we're supposed to just continue right?

38:26

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, good. Because I want to

38:29

tell you something. My niece once said to me, Joanie, how do you get every guy you date to being vegan? And I said, well, as an older woman, I'll tell you, you sleep with them first. Initially, you get them hooked, and then you turn that off until they become vegan, and that one guy, that last guy a day he went vegan in a day, so it can be done.

38:55

There are more.

38:57

And that's if women rule things. Yeah. But you know what, one of the things john was talking about was that soy protein isolate that bulk powder, that's all protein. And in this country, we have that protein myth where everyone thinks, you know, you can't be plant based. Where do you get your protein? When obviously the question is I'm getting plenty of protein. It's where are you getting your fibre because God needs it and your gut is holding the health to every process that's going on at the cellular level in your body. is crazy. We have that thing called leaky gut. Do you guys have that in the UK? Yeah, that's all from the bad bacteria. The whole microbiome is totally messed up. And it just makes everything kind of not work for the diseases that didn't exist when we were in nursing school. So I've been out of nursing school since 84. I think at two four Jane and I was embarrassed getting report when somebody mentioned GERD and what else did I bro I was like I had never I had to look it up. I didn't even know well, none of us knew about it. Because in nursing school, they used to say that if somebody belching or having a hard time with their digestion, the nurse was supposed to sit down and tell them how to eat an anti inflammatory diet, not how to take a pill. Joan? Oh, and here's my own observation, no study whatsoever. But we like john said, we've been nurses since the 80s. And Fibromyalgia started coming out in terms of us hearing about it mid mid 80s. Sometime, okay. Every patient not not, not 90%. But 100% of patients that I have ever met with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia, when you ask them what they eat, oh, it's not good food, it's more processed. And like very few fruits and vegetables, and they'll admit it, you know, they'll say I eat like an adolescent boy, and they just don't eat right? I don't think they discussed that. Again, again, what that's doing is destroying the whole gut bacteria community down there. And if you're not able to break down the food that you're putting into your body, for nutrition and to go throughout the entire body to nourish it, then how are you going to get healthy? How are you going to stay healthy? So that's that, uh huh.

41:23

Thinking about the you know, this, like say this rise in vegan culture, this obsession with protein, the division within society etc. I'm thinking of like, you know, social media and your your perspective on it because particularly as as mental health professionals as well as people involved in that industry. I see obviously some benefits Yeah, I think you know, from the rise of veganism and inflammation point of view, I think about the amount of easily packaged double inflammations, you'd like to see spirits for examples just come out and it's dead easy to to shed share a story from you know, with a video clip on Instagram or whatever and get through to X amount of 1000 viewers and hook people with Oh my God, I didn't realise that was going on is brilliant. But on the flip side, you've got this like I say obsession with protein division politically is families a war with one another image conscious sort of obsessive kind of natures in folks and and real struggles with mental health. What's your, your view on the role of social media for as from the perspective of mental health professionals? You know, where do you think it sort of sits?

42:43

Oh, for mental health? I, unfortunately, I think that it, it worsens people's depression, because they look at other people and think, oh, wow, I'm not doing any of that in their life, or their bodies, or whatever it is they're looking at, they get sad, or you know, they, they don't realise, like, we have people that we know that, you know, I don't know when they're living, because they're actually filming it always, all the time. But um, I think that for that, it makes people feel worse. And I think that I love all the vegan stuff, but from what I've heard from my own clients, that it overwhelmed them, because it wasn't easy. And if you suffer from depression, it's like this vicious circle, or everything's a Buddha bowl, and I don't like Buddha bowls, but I'll tell you what, a client said she, she actually vegan now. And I thought, huh, probably because what I used to say, and I said, How come she said, Well, I was thinking about how I suffer from anxiety and depression. And I watched a video on how animals suffer from such severe anxiety or depression and depression. Why would I do that? And why would I eat those hormones at the time when they're being killed? And I thought is that all I had to say to you, like I had that in the back of my head, I'm thinking bitch, you're eating that, you know, like, they suffer from anxiety and depression, too. But anything, so for that aspect of social media, if you get one thing out of something, you heard it nine times over there, but that guy said it, and you heard it. I'm grateful for that because more people will go vegan. And I think that with social media, and I want to include, you know, like billboards or Time Square in New York, what's in light. If you do the shock value, where you show say, a pig being slaughtered, you're going to get people turning away, and then you're not going to get you're going to lose those people too. I think the more subtle things or like one of the things our sister Laurie used to make her own vegan meatballs and I think it was that and she would bring them every to every party she went to and they people then started asking her Hey, you know, I really liked those. You know, I'm trying to maybe lose weight or something and you know, give me the recipe. So, I think by example, you know, showing by example, And maybe like john said, making it a little bit easier lesson your face one because I really do get, you know, I get turned off on with the social media stuff is and I know they have to fall into it to compete but oh 13 high protein vegan meals, well you know what I okay and keep your protein because I'm fond of my kidney

45:27

token of that. I mean, you know, the you mentioned there and it was it was a positive example but somebody watching a clip getting some information that they might have heard in 10 different ways before but this was the one that landed for them when they were, you know, on the on the bus or whatever. And they'd seen that on their phone way in your experience, you know, again, from the maybe from the therapy perspective and then as as people evolved in the medical health industry, etc. Like, do you see is there been a rise in kind of people desperate to diagnose themselves and kind of almost tell you where they're at where they're at based on what they've seen because there's so much information out there that everybody's now got a an ailment of some description, everybody fits into a bucket of I think I've got this or you know, do you see a lot of is that is that troubles you?

46:26

I know it doesn't trouble me as much as a Buddha bowl. You know what, again, in our training, we were taught that what we were taught number Penny, she said you are going to have people that have more it could possibly have more education than you do, or access to certain things that are new in mental health. And don't be opposed to that because you know, you walk into a doctor's office and they think they he or she knows everything that's a big turnoff. So I'm open to it. I mean something I used to come in and demand an anti psychotic because they were tricked on television and they thought it was for depression and then no I'm going to step in and say really, you want an anti psychotic like we could consider that. And you know a lot you know, speaking of what the pharmaceutical companies are doing and they are brilliant Don't get me wrong is they are the anti psychotics newer ones do treat depression and anxiety very very well. And they're getting approved for certain things especially this buzzword bipolar depression but I like I used to like when a patient would come in and say I'm bipolar and then what I would say is it's going to take us a little while now to diagnose that because that is you don't first of all don't want that label if you don't have to have it and a lot of times they're just talking about a temper having a temper in with females and who doesn't have it females that it was it's always around their periods and their men season yeah you know with men you know, it was their temper it was associated alcohol or Psalm a, but what they forget in other offices to ask is, you know, with bipolar disorder, you don't require the sleep you're pleased you you're up and productive the person you know, like me if I didn't get enough sleep, sure, I haven't slept in a few days, but I want my sleep and I feel exhausted. But no one asked that, oh, if you've been incarcerated, oh, you're bipolar? They don't even ask you unless in this country you know what happened was what happened happened was we all under diagnosed bipolar disorder and then you get lots and lots of literature and education and like most things is now we over in my opinion we've over diagnosed bipolar disorder in patients and the only goods the saving grace in psychiatry is you know, if you learn one or two things about the medicines and you know you can go to these atypical antipsychotics because they treat everything you probably aren't going to do any harm to patients but back on the topic I used to love when clients would come in and say I have this or I have that and then we'd go through it all together over time and figure out if they really did have it or or if it was something else but anti-psychotics Oh, don't help a poor diet and they can actually induce a metabolic syndrome so they're not they're not benign meds, none of them are benign. No, like we all should be careful about what we put in our body. Oh, that's the other thing when people say Oh, you're so fussy. Well, thank God I don't shovel everything in anything in my body. I mean, you can eat a Volkswagen if you want to over little periods of time. It's in the Guinness Book of World Records, but that's not food to her. What do you eat a food

49:49

would that be you know that there's staples that you would advise anybody to start with, whether it be physically unhealthy, mentally unhealthy, it Would it always start with nutrition for you know what are those kind of like those key pillars that you'd always look at?

50:07

If you're talking about diet though

50:09

Yeah, I mean for if sorry a mental health kind of problem where maybe they came to you with it you know, there was even if you encountered somebody at a physically a physical health problem, would you always start with kind of diet, exercise, etc before you went anywhere near medication, you know, would that be a general rule of thumb or

50:29

unfortunately no, because nobody wants it. Some people say if you bring it up, I'm gonna leave on. If you bring my weight up or anything that goes into my mouth, I'm going to get up and walk out it's so taboo here. We've almost glorified obesity as what do they call it oversized plus, and that's almost like it politically incorrect to even address obesity there. People are so sensitive about the way I often get from mothers, if a mother comes into a session, they would say really, you're going to treat my daughter and you're anorexic. Like I'll be called anorexic even though I am not as skinny as I could be and still being have a BMI normal BMI. So what we forget is what Jane and I will do is you to the band America, it's called but back in the 70s and the men had arms like me, you know, thin and everyone would have no one had breasts while the women had breast but the men didn't have breasts and they were everyone was so thin and now we we have moved to I'm the unhealthy one, people will look at me and say, Oh, I'm worried about you don't really worry about yourself and how you can't button your pants. That, thank goodness, there is a trend in my opinion that some practitioners whether they're prescribers or are not prescribers, that do explore healthy lifestyles with people. Which, you know, between diet and exercise, and you know, just so you know, john and i, most patients really liked us because we do not go to the gym metal, or we don't do all that cardio. We do like the little old lady from the past where you do a little bit of walking and weight bearing with the walking. I figured I exercised my whole life. My anxiety was so bad. I had post traumatic stress from birth. And the fact that I never stopped moving, I don't need to exercise this I what I need to do is stop moving, sit. I needed somebody to knock me out is what I need. But yeah, I love being vegan, though. And it would always come in first as a joke. Because with humour, people will hear you a little bit more. But then like a bean isn't even food. I don't know what's wrong with this country, everything is at Burger, you know what, no one sleeps. And if you go have a certain amount of time without sleep, God forbid yours without good sleep, you can carry lots of different diagnoses that aren't that aren't even true, right? And then patients of ours would go have sleep studies. And first of all, there are a handful of people. And they go to the sleep specialist. They sleep over right? Yeah. And there's a handful of people that actually never fall asleep. And that you know that they don't get any treatment whatsoever. Because apparently no one knows how to help people sleep. We don't even know why we have to sleep we know we know we have to sleep we don't know why we have to sleep because all the time because all the vital organs are working while you're sleeping anyway. But we know with a lack of sleep initially you're going to get getting happy. And at a certain point you will get highly anxious and go into a psychosis so in Vish Hello. So that's the funny part in America is go for a sleep study and they'll tell you that you are dependent on benzodiazepines or, or sleep hypnotics. And that's not a good idea. So try to get the prescriber to take you off of that, but that nobody really is helping us sleep. And of course, stress. You know, America, you know, 40 Hour Work Week is nothing, you know, do those time changes and pull yourself up by the bootstraps. And don't you dare get into a little car accident because of lack of sleep, food, eat all this processed food and it's meaningless. It's fine, your body's fine, because we have a medicine for you. There. Okay. When I don't remember what your question was, I hope she answered it.

54:37

What, where does all this end? Where do we how do we move forward? What's your what's your advice for folks listening?

54:45

I think that if you find somebody that you can you admire and you know anybody for men, I always mentioned david Haye, the boxer. Yeah, I always mentioned certain men, you know, just look at them. They've got the muscles that were Ever women I mean, they'll always talking about weight loss. So I think for everyone we need to I think we hardly salute Yeah, I don't know because there's so many problems. And we can complain and go places and take medicines and etc. But if you're part of the solution, I think that's where the real change comes from. And we we have access with these phones of ours, we have access to a lot of information and I've gotten mixed messages out there too. You know, eggs are good. Eggs are bad feel. The cholesterol in eggs are equally as bad as animal the cholesterol in eggs on your liver, the human liver doesn't really like it. So eat the eggs. I mean, we get totally conflicting messages out there. But the information is out there and people can, you know, eat an egg every day for a week and then eat for breakfast and the next week, see how you feel in the next week. eat oatmeal every day with blueberries for a week. See how you feel and I mean, be your own product of change. Don't let culture and tradition holds you hostage. People are afraid of that too. Because that's how it's always been there. That's a good message. I think David Dr. Greger I think said that David's prayer, I think that's his name. Yes.

56:22

But don't be held hostage is a great place to to, to pause where whereabouts would folks go about finding out a little bit more about you? I know you've got an awesome website europei twins.com

56:36

or on every social media. It's really it's therapy twin sets it at therapy twins. One word one word

56:43

amazing. Well, I'll link that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. It's been it's been amazing chatting with you. I've learned lots myself. And if anything you've piqued my interest to get get more involved and perhaps stop eating so much soil isolate. So thanks