Carol J. Adams

Carol J Adams

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

vegan, veganism, vegans, people, animals, meat, book, world, politics, united states, burger, eating, women, suppose, called, feel, nostalgia, community

SPEAKERS

Jim Moore, Carol J. Adams

Jim Moore  00:10

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast The Bloody Vegans, you're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant-centric, and this week is no different. This week, I'm going to be chatting with Carol J. Adams. Carol is a feminist vegan advocate, activist, independent scholar, and author of an absolute treasure trove of books, including the truly groundbreaking, ‘The sexual politics of meat - a feminist vegetarian critical theory’, which is actually 30 years old this year. So, Carol, and I talk about a whole range of subjects from the upcoming U.S. general election, the impact of social media on feminism and intersectionality and it’s connection with veganism. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Carol J. Adams. 

Jim Moore

First of all, Carol, thank you, thank you so much for being being on the podcast. It's amazing having you having you on and and just a huge congratulations on the 30th anniversary of sexual politics, a seminal work and so influential and, sadly, as relevant today as it as it was when it was when it was first published. How would you describe the book for those who are perhaps new to your work?

Carol J. Adams  02:07

Well, thanks, Jim. And, and, yes, 30 years, it's sort of incredible that the book’s been out for 30 years and it still speaks to the current conditions of our world. I guess I'm making three main points in the book. I'll say the first is that the sexual politics of meat is referring to the idea that men need meat, men are supposed to eat meat, real men eat meat, all of those sort of tropes, or or slogans that we could experience or run into, through social media, through advertisements, through media advertisements, but not just media advertisements, which is sort of fascinating. And I know we'll get back later to how that's changed, so I'll just talk about what how the book was trying to intervene in pointing that out, and how vegetables then were denigrated, and associated with women. So you know, it's fine for women, to eat a salad, but why would men want a salad, all of those stereotypes which participate in a gender binary that we know is itself faulty. And so the second thing is that I've identified that animals are absent reference, in meat eating, and dairy and egg production, and what I meant by that is that animals disappear as unique beings who are alive and make decisions and have relationships to becoming objects and objectified no name, they're killed, and they're the food that is taken from their, their corpses is renamed. So the animal who exists or enables meat eating and dairy and eggs to exist, disappears from conscious reference. And this is what makes meat eaters comfortable, to have absolute reference in their lives, and people who eat the products of cows and chickens. This is also what makes them uncomfortable when they're interacting with vegans because what we do by not eating the dead animal or the, the milk, mammalian milk or eggs, is remind them that they have a choice and that we see a relationship with the other animals who disappeared so that they can (meat eaters) have their meals. The third thing I said was that women also are absent reference in a patriarchal culture, so that women disappear as subjects of our own lives and become objects In a consumer patriarchal culture, and that then women and animals become the sort of interchangeable absent reference. And that's discussing not just ideas about animals as sexualized beings in advertisements, you can find them, you know, walking around London in Manchester. There are a variety of examples from England and Scotland that I've been sent. But it's also functioning in the way women are talked about as pieces of meat, so that the reference point for animals who are sexualized are objectified women, and the reference point for women who are called cow or chicken, or shown as cut up as a piece of, like a diagram of a of a dead animal is that the animal so that there's this constant reinforcement of disempowerment by reference to another disempowered being? And the fourth thing I did in the book was show the benefits of bringing this sort of political understanding about women and animals to looking at history and literature. So for instance, why was Frankenstein's monster a vegetarian? Who were the vegetarians in our past? How did those vegetarians because the word vegan wasn't coined till the 1940s? How did they see themselves in relationships to other radical causes? Finally, I think what the book did 30 years ago, is it provided vegans and animal activists? A source that said, Yes, your intuition that what you were doing here is connected to other social justice movements is correct. And here is why.

Jim Moore  06:58

And all so incredibly relevant today. Like, you know, as you go through the subjects there, I think, particularly when I think about that, that last one, about the connection with social justice movements, I often don't necessarily see that connection being made. And it feels like your, your, your work here is so is so relevant today. And I just wondered on your, your, your viewpoint, as you know, as we It feels like, to my mind anyway, that, that there's some progressive steps made, and then that there's been perhaps a real lurch away from those progressive steps in the last few years with whether it be the rise of trumpism or think about the Tory party over here in the UK. And it kind of, to me seems like a almost an overt kind of patriarchy, in backlash if you like, and I suppose the optimistic view would be that it'd be the last throes of that, you know, trying to trying to reassert itself. But I'd love to get your viewpoint on where you think it's sort of the current climate sits in relation to that, do you feel like it is the final throes or whether actually the battle is is is still very much being waged as it was 30 years ago?

Carol J. Adams  08:22

I think that, yes. Any advanced brings back or has resulted in retrenchment, regressive politics. Certainly the white supremacist beliefs of Trump and his followers was a response to having our first African American president. We've seen that with feminism, you know, retrograde beliefs coming back through wave after wave of feminism, that it's one, you know, every advance has to be reacted against repressed. One of the interesting things that is noted is, for instance, that when you find this nostalgia in a kind in a culture, that nostalgia has often been triggered by the change in women's roles. So for instance, lots of voters in 2016 felt the 1950s were a better time. I'm sorry, that night, the 2016 presidential election here, those voting for Trump felt that the 1950s were a better time than now. And so the nostalgia for that time is telling us something because what were the 1950s for us in the United States, it was time of Jim Crow, which is, you know, was the United States version of apartheid. It was a time when women could not get credit cards could not get bank loans weren't supposed to have names on their on a checking account were discriminated against at work, there was a huge movement, homophobic movement against employing gays at the federal level. So, whenever you encounter nostalgia and what summarises nostalgia more than a traditional meat dinner, roast beef and Yorkshire pudding or, you know, hamburgers, those all become the aura for them is this, this nostalgic remembrance of when that was an undisturbed act. And so whether we know it or not, our veganism is making a political statement. Now, that's very threatening. And we, one of the other things we see is this rise not just of white supremacy, but of white Nazis. Speaking about the United States, where what we know now is that the biggest threat, terrorist threat in the United States is white supremacists, and white supremacists themselves have been using meat and dairy as symbols of what part of what they represent. So for instance, we know that the majority of the world has lactose intolerance. That is, they lack the enzyme that helps you digest mammalian milk. And the people who are easiest, most easily digest mammalian milk are whites from Europe, European descendants of, of Northern Europeans. And so drinking cow's milk becomes a symbol for the Nazis of the right wing right now. So I know I've gone a little further than what you were asking, we are in the midst of a, an attempt to roll back the advances that have occurred for many oppressed groups. We are trying to end xenophobia. during a time when xenophobia is so strong, we're trying to end white supremacy during a time that, you know, we're having to say black lives matter in the United States, we're trying to end misogyny during a time when women's bodies become still a political football, as they call it. Just Just today, we learned that women being held in these you know what some are calling concentration camps, because they're, they have no rights. They're, they've been forced to have hysterectomies. So all of these things that control the bodies of oppressed people are happening right now. And so whatever advances we had, are just undercut by the oppression of the individual groups that are being affected, but by the corollary, which is the deprivation of democratic rights, to be able to use democracy as a remedy against oppression. And I feel that very strongly right now because we're in the middle of another presidential election where there's a fear that Trump will win, not through the votes, but through depriving people of the right to vote and benefiting from the interference of foreign governments. Anyway, that's a political issue for vegans. Because retrograde politics, hangs its hat on meat and dairy. It's part of that identity.

Jim Moore  14:31

I think that that piece around that nostalgia, I think absolutely this whether it's make make America great again, or you know, that kind of terminology absolutely harks back to a time when repression was was even more overt, then than it is today. And I suppose in the in context of the election, or just sort of as we as we're on the subject. So I'd love to get your view on. Do you feel that the the the sort of the election that's upcoming is incredibly, obviously, you know, critical in the removal of say, you know, Trump from office. However, I suppose there's a concern in my mind that the choice here is not necessarily one of systemic change versus Trumpism. But kind of two sides of the same coin. And, and and are we in danger, even if there is a sort of a democratic win in this election of thinking, you know, well, that's kind of job done. I mean, you could argue in a way that Obama kind of caused a complacency in in sort of, you know, what we'd call the left, if you like, do you think that there's a, the election has, has the power to cause that complacency if it goes the other way? Or do you think actually, there's some, there's there's some real traction in some of these social justice movements now that we absolutely need to hang on to.

Carol J. Adams  16:08

I don't think the left was complacent with Obama, the left was unhappy with Obama. I mean, Obama got the health care pass, but there were international relationships that were very disturbing. And that kind of I mean, this was the problem that happened in 2016, was that the left didn't see Hillary as as, you know, some people on the left and see Hillary as being able to deliver on the kinds of goals they had. But right now, I mean, we're talking about whether Trump is going to stack our federal judiciary with with regressive, politicians long after republicans are so outnumbered in the country that we'll have, we'll be stuck with decisions that are way out of touch with, with where the US citizens are, but because they're appointed for life there, they're going to protect still the 1% in a variety of ways. So this is no mean this election is definitely not, they are different sides of the coin, you have someone who who disparages science, if we had only had someone who just stepped up in February and said, were a damn mask, you know, and where's the empathy, I mean, just going back to why we're concerned about animals. Many of us do that because there's empathy. We are empathetic people, but we're living in a world in which empathy is ridiculed. So having empathy, if we had empathy, we would recognise that wearing a mask is the simplest thing we can do as neighbours. Just as you know, being vegan is a part of being a neighbour to others neighbour to the animals who are being killed a neighbour to the people who live in this, you know, the south as its, as it's called, who are more likely to be affected by climate change. So right now, I mean, we know that the United States has got you know, hurricanes on the right side of us and, and wildfires on the left all signs of climate change. But, but these issues that are really life or death, are, are being voted on this year. We can't wait four more years to have a climate policy. Whatever week, however weak it is, and one of the things I did in this book called protest kitchen, was we tried to say, look, no matter where your country is, like United States or wherever, in terms of the Paris accords, you yourself are either participating in stopping climate change or you yourself are withdrawing from those accords depending upon you know, what you're eating and who you're eating. So yes, you know, let's have changed at the national level and international level, but recognise that there's something new yourself could be doing every day about where we are

Jim Moore  19:31

100% and that in like, you say that empathy. You know, I I'd like to think within the vegan community probably more pronounced, you know, by by many people's, you know, decision to become vegan in the first place. And I'd like to get your view on the kind of rise of social media culture, if you like, and whether you feel, you know, because I think in many ways, you know, certainly, and I've not been vegan anywhere near as as, as long as yourself like Three and a half years for me, and and social media as well as you know, the various documentaries that have been made in the last kind of sort of three to five years or so have played a huge part certainly in my decision making my understanding perhaps of some of the issues particularly around climate change, which was one of the initial seeds of inspiration for me. But do you see that that social media has a kind of potential for for harm to the vegan community? Or do you think it is all you know exclusively positive as a means to spread a message?

Carol J. Adams  20:36

Ah, I think it's mixed. Let's talk about what's positive. If I want to make an eggplant ricotta dish out of my tofu ricotta, I could probably have five vegan eggplant ricotta is it's a touch of my googling fingers. Certainly recipes, people blogging about recipes. I mean, and of course, because blogs aren't limited like if I were doing an article for a print newspaper, we often learn a lot more than we need to know before we ever get to the recipe. But so you know, whether social media brings about a sort of logorrhoea? You know, talking too much is a question. And social media helps spread information certainly. And that's positive but there's a woman of feminist from wrote a book back in the 1980s called the pornography of representation and she said, culture is patriarchy is a mirror. You know, when when we look at culture, what we are seeing is the mirror of patriarchy, if we live in a patriarchal misogynist white supremacist world, it will be mirrored back to us to the culture and of course that's why for the past 30 years people have been sending me images that show these connections you know, a pink pig sexualised wear with a come hither look and high heels and lipstick and, and wearing a bikini or you know, wearing garters and high and stockings, all for a barbecue ad. So that's, that's the mirror of patriarchy and speciesism so social media is going to do that too. And one way it does it in the vegan community is my god how many white men are being supported by monthly donations? Because they are they're the ones who are going to change the world? Why are we empowering more and more you know, sort of like white lifestyle influencers? Is that the world we're looking to become and also some of them are so opinionated to so then that becomes another way of mirroring patriarchy. Instead of believing in say grassroots organising and community organising and working at the local level or working at the, you know, the nation level. We're going to deputise these white men to be our spokespeople. Boy that is retrograde. It represents its own kind of nostalgia for the you know, the perfectly coiffed or not coiffed spokes man for the movement that's going backwards.

Jim Moore  23:41

Yeah, that connects to I think, a point that I've certainly seen a lot of in, whether it's vegan branding, social media that you know, how products are marketed in the vegan community, particularly I think in the last sort of few years, social media has kind of really exploded and like you say, this kind of, is also almost this sort of, you know, what, the white male Saviour kind of trope is made its way into into veganism. But I think you know, when I first look at some of that branding, it's sort of centred around some of the things that you talk about, in in the sexual politics of meat around the way that kind of the male stereotype if you like, is fed in, you know, by by me and by the flesh off of animals is kind of made its way in a little in a sense to me at least into veganism, but do you see it kind of in a positive way Because ultimately, it's it's trying to say that you know, masculinity is made through through plants, you know, the sort of the, the strength and so on and all this kind of stuff, or just Yeah, she says, it's just rebranding of the same old idea. Yeah, but just but just being sold to vegans in the new sense,

Carol J. Adams  24:57

making veganism safe for white men. That could be the slogan. I mean, really?

Jim Moore  25:02

Yeah, that's right.

Carol J. Adams  25:04

It's, it's still the sexual politics of meat. I mean, they could have instead of having these slogans, real many plants and, and all that, who's a real man? Why do we have to know what a real man is? Why is masculinity something that can be pinpointed? And, and sort of reified through plants or meat? I mean, that is the sexual politics of meat, they're just turning the, you know, the idea upside down and say, No, no, no, you're not going to get your masculinity from meat now, I mean, because meat and dairy are going to make you flabby, and they're going to make you weak, and they're going to, you know, they're still participating in the idea of what men should be. Why aren't we to saying, look, the gender binary is falling, there is gender fluidity, there is so much movement, why are we so hung up in keeping something masculine or feminine male or female? If there's a plurality here, and you know, there we could use veganism and all the different ways we could we can cook, there is a plurality and veganism, versus a homeostasis with meat and potatoes and, and dairy milk and an egg for breakfast. That is just so limited. And instead of flipping that and saying, Oh, yeah, you know, you you can be a real man this way. Why don't we just say, move forward with plurality, we have no idea all the different ways to prepare vegetables and fruits yet, I mean, vegan chefs are showing us all these incredible creativity, why can't we let that creativity be working? Also at the level of gender, and stop feeling like we have to make veganism safe for white men? I mean, really. It's, it's a shame

Jim Moore  27:08

feels like it's, it's what marketing understands, you know, it's a language that marketing whether it's in business or, or even well think marketing that we've all learned when we've grown up with some social media, you know, our lives, have learned this language of marketing, and then want to perpetuate it because that's all almost all we know, and haven't broken out of it, you know, it seems to me at least,

Carol J. Adams  27:36

but also because it, it keeps it as the patriarchal, white centred mirror, that culture dominant culture is, you know, think outside the Instagram post, think outside, you know, the twitterverse We're the kind of dynamic veganism that's possible, is almost being held back by the idea that we have to sort of domesticated to make it appropriate. Probably more white men are adopting veganism because they've gone to their doctors as well. So I'm not saying we should try to get everybody to see the benefits of veganism, but we should recognise the political dynamics that are going on when we create targeted campaigns that we enforce really very sad stereotypes.

Jim Moore  28:49

I suppose that brings me on a little bit to you know, things like I can think about various kind of meat substitute kind of burgers and our big businesses is using sort of, again, this this similar language, there's almost like, you know, you see meat substitutes now that are that are obsessed with making things look like they're bleeding and these kinds of things, which, you know, seems like a very bizarre concept to me. Do you think that, that I suppose this monetization of veganism is is kind of a concern for the movement again, just another sort of distraction or, or move back to retrograde step if you look back to two white male centred views?

Carol J. Adams  29:37

Let me answer that in just a second. My dog is out the door and can't understand why I'm letting not letting him in. Hold on just one second. So in answer,

Jim Moore  30:02

we cannot have an unhappy dog. That's true.

Carol J. Adams  30:03

And he's very happy now he has settled in. So I did a book called burger. And it's in the series called object lessons where it's looking at where each book looks at something different, say a book sell for whales, not a whale song, or drone, cigarette lighter, etc. So I did burger. And I looked at the history of the burger, and I redefined the burger as a single portion, protein Patty, which I really liked for the alliteration. And once you disassociate burger from the notion that it has to be from a dead animal, but instead that it's a single force and protein Patty, I looked at it sort of history of food, where do you find these? Well, the falafel would be a single protein, a single portion protein Patty, as some of the Indian patties that can be traced to, like 1500 BCE, were were that as well. And whenever the hamburger sort of makes its appearance in the United States in the late 19th century, there were veggie burger, like things nipping at its heel throughout the whole 20th century. So this new appearance of of these sort of texture textured vegan products, isn't anything new. What's new, is that they may have finally found something that meat eaters don't realise is that meat in living among meat eaters, I say, people are perfectly happy eating vegan food, as long as they don't know, that is what they're doing. Because they're bringing their consciousness, it's, it's they're feeling like you're depriving me of something. So I think there's a role for any food that lays that suspicion and shows meat eaters, they really don't know what they're eating. And so I got married like 42 years ago, but we so we had these walnut balls at at our, our wedding reception. And I remember this very Boris guy came up, and he said, so you gave in Carol, so you gave in thinking he was eating with me. And I just had so much fun. I never told him. I just I laughed. I mean, I just had to laugh at him. Because we have to remember, this is the level at which some meat eaters are operating. Like you can't take away my meat. And who do you think you are? And oh, so I, I've met the founders of both beyond meat and impossible foods. And what I know about them is that they both were concerned about climate change the fate of the animals and the cruelty of slaughtering the situation of slaughterhouse workers, and all the environmental devastation and the health, I know that it was a well rounded reason that brought about those companies. And that, that what they both recognised is, is you know, what I just said, people don't want to give up their you know, so called beat. And so their intervention into public consumption is very interesting. It's the media, who's really carried away with this idea of a burger that bleeds I remember when beyond meat came to England. I was interviewed by you know what food? I can't remember food magazine or something about it being the burger that bleeds, they said, it's, it's not even advertised that way. I mean, you all are making it that they do not advertise it that way. That's actually impossible. burger, not the beyond burger. But is the the notion that you've got to have a burger that bleeds then fed into the way the media was receiving the information. Now, is there a place for those kind of burgers? Sure. This is back to the plurality of veganism, lots of vegans, we could eat them or we could that we know how to make our own veggie burgers, we. But we have to remember that neither of those companies were making them for vegans. They were making them for for non vegans in terms of monetization of the vegan movement. We are one of the social change movements that involves consumption, literal consumption. have food there things are going to be monetized. How else are we going to get those products out there? So, you know, as long as we're living in a capitalist system, we are stuck with monetization, how that happens, and whether we should believe that sort of from the top down. Product change is the only way to happen rather than what I like to think about as sort of spontaneous grassroots vegan meals that so overwhelm or persuade, because you're just so relaxed about it here or try this. This is a wonderful meal. And people can walk away and think, oh, that was a wonderful meal. And oh, yeah, Carol's a vegan, oh, I just ate a vegan meal. Oh, that was pretty good. You know, so that we we don't have to look at that as our only solution. Because it's not put in terms of a repertoire of responses. I think that that's a fair one.

Jim Moore  36:07

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely heard a recall there being especially around sort of the veganuary time, which seems like about a million years ago, now. This January, that's just gone. And there being a number of new products to hit the market, KFC in particular, and there being a fairly lively discussion on in some of the social media channels that I'd followed, whether it's that sort of Twitter verse or whatever, around, you know, whether vegans should partake in it, and you know, whether it's good to perpetuate a vegan product like that, and then therefore, you know, sort of almost buying our way into some sort of social change, or whether actually you know it, we're not really we're just gonna monetize KFC, you know, even further and perpetuate their success, which is going to ultimately result in you know, further climate change and further suffering to animals, and so on, so forth. So the interesting to get your, your, your perspective on that particular debate as well,

Carol J. Adams  37:08

I just don't think vegans need to be eating at KFC, unless you're doing some cross country ride and can't get something anywhere. I mean, again, we should not think of these as the solutions to us. If we're vegans, we've already figured it out. And, you know, there's something that becomes even more complex. For instance, when Wendy's had a veggie burger here in the United States, and everybody said, Go to Wendy's and support their veggie burger. But their employees were striking at that time. Why would you cross a picket line to support Wendy's? it, you know, are, what we are about is powerful change. But it isn't about any one product, it's really about transformation and we need to align ourselves with others working for the kinds of transformation. We we believe in and, and to recognise that we can be doing harm. You know, veganism is not the solution to everything I always see value in this and as a beginning point, sure I'm a vegan, but during the day, I might be working at a domestic violence shelter, or I might, you know, be on the frontlines with black lives matter or I might be doing any thing, my veganism just becomes something I take for granted as I then engage with other community needs and, and and become a member of the community that needs change. You know, for us to settle and think oh, you know, veganism is the final thing I have to do no, veganism should always be pricking our consciousness that if we are empathetic, and care, what are the other issues that call to us?

Jim Moore  39:02

100% sort of three times a day, active protests and avoidance of destruction, reminder of empathy, but you say one that can fuel the rest of our days worth of, of activism and a whole range of different subjects.

Carol J. Adams  39:18

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things in the pornography of meat, which comes out on October 29. So that book was originally done in 2003. And it was trying to show sort of how representations work. Sexual politics have been laid out this theory, but really had very few images when it first appeared. But people started sending me images from all around the world. And I thought, Oh, well, now I need to discuss this and now I need to discuss this, you know, the, the animal is Asian of African American women, particularly in the way they're shown as animals or how pinkness is functioning as a sort of signifier of whiteness. Pink pigs and all. And so then my publisher offered to bring bring it out and I said to y'all, I'll need to look at it and, you know, bring up out an updated version. And so now, this version has 340 images from around the world that just show how dispersed these attitudes are, including something called chalk Sajani. So it would be something that your local restaurant talks on their chalkboard outside of their restaurant, which is, you know, Taro, the examples of course, I'm providing girl, misogynistic about animals and women. And so I'm trying to decode the wallpaper of this mirror that's white supremacist and patriarchal and Zena phobic. And because those issues have become more intense in the past decade and a half. It turned out there was a lot more for me to say. So, in a sense, if people are wondering, Well, what is my next step? How you know, I've become a vegan, but how do I figure out how to engage with the world? Well, maybe looking at a book like that, that helps you become a social critic, and extend your consciousness to see how our attitudes towards animals are sort of threaded through out attitudes about women and people of colour, how these these oppressive attitudes sort of inner weave to create the cloth of oppression that's someplace to start

Jim Moore  41:43

the talking, talking of places to start, I mean, what advice would you give because I think you know, I've met so many nit amin on Reddit, I suppose I'm relatively one myself in only three and a half years vegan, but I meet so many, almost on a daily basis, it feels like maybe that's my bubble, but of, of people who've transitioned to veganism and are thinking about activism and thinking about how it how it sort of intersects with other social movements, and what would you say is, is a starting point, you know, beyond you know, once you've started to, to notice and you know, certainly like you say, the pornography of meat is a is a fantastic way to, to help people along that journey of sort of like, this is what is going on around you. This is how pervasive This is, what sort of would your steps to kind of activism look like? What that you would you'd almost recommend?

Carol J. Adams  42:37

Well, I think the question is, how do we express solidarity, and everybody is situated differently? And one way is to look around in your community, what are the issues? What are the issues in the exact community you're in? What are the statistics on police violence? domestic violence? Where's the xenophobia? Who's fighting that? How can you be an ally? Can you bring vegan food to meetups? Can you you know, just restart reading about your local community. I think being involved at the local level is really important. And understanding what's happening at the national level, wherever you are, that writing letters to, to local newspapers, people forget that people still read local newspapers, if they exist in your community, writing letters, even turning out at council meetings or whatever, you know, level of democracy is near you. Figuring out how to share veganism in a non threatening way. I mean, having recipes with you, or, you know, having these sort of spontaneous vegan meals, working with others, always understanding where the thumb of oppression is being felt locally, is important. And then acting in response and in solidarity and not believing we have all the answers. Sometimes it's a matter of sitting and listening. We might know about veganism, and we might want to just, you know, speak up and say, oh, Listen, why aren't you all vegan? But there's a certain humility in being an activist too. And we need to know when it's time for us to be listening and learning. And if you find yourself feeling uncomfortable, you're probably in the right place. And that I think all helps make us kind of vegans for this time. We can not ignore the politics that surrounds our veganism.

Jim Moore  45:01

Key one sort of final question for me, for you, Carol, based based on your experience and sense, particularly the sort of 30 years that you've seen, since sexual politics of, of me, What? Do you sort of feel ultimately optimistic about our direction of Trumps? Do you feel like as much as it's, you know, we've been pulled backwards in the sort of the various intersecting movements? we've, we've actually gone forward, you know, further than, further than back when, and what, what's your view on that?

Carol J. Adams  45:33

Well, at a personal level is soy milk is a lot better now. Certainly, there are a lot of resources to help us to help stimulate us and help us be, you know, really great vegans. But I don't think any of us can measure the success of what we're doing by its outcome. The minute we do that, we are so hung up on metrics and, and, you know, failure and all of these complex emotions based on a projection that we will prevail, I hope we prevail. And certainly there are a lot of forces that can help us prevail. But we can't take our day to day living, and invested in some future success that makes or breaks or you know, defines for us our success. I think being vegan is a success. And being an engaged vegan, is great, is important. And that, that then you just step into the kind of water of social change, and you hope that in swimming and struggling through it, we are going to end up with a transformed world. But in the meantime, we know that we're changing the world in small ways, and have to have faith that as we all work on this together, we're we're going to have an impact. But we can't rest our sense of accomplishment on how the impact is felt or known or measured.

Jim Moore  47:30

Thank you, Carol. Really, really, really appreciate your time. It's, it's been wonderful, wonderful chatting to you. And thank you again, the the the updated version of pornography of me that's available at the end of October, correct

Carol J. Adams  47:46

in, in both Great Britain and the United States. And I feel like it's an intervention into our current dilemmas and offers as well, some hope, because it ends with artists representations of and I believe art is always a wonderful way to, to intervene and represent optimism. Even when it's critical. It's optimistic, because it's saying I can stand here and critique. So that would be the other thing that I encourage people to do is support local artists in resistance, especially if they're feminist, vegan, anti white supremacists. But yeah, the book I think, I I'm sad I had to write it, I'm sad, this stuff is still relevant. But it it's step steps into the breech with a I think a helpful interpretation so that people can see the context in which our veganism is experienced.

Jim Moore  49:10

With Thank you so much, be sure to be checking out the book and I'll put some links in the in the show notes there, how to head onto your website, and so on, and find out a little bit more and hopefully pick up a copy of the new book and, and also, if people haven't read it, thoroughly encourage them to, to pick up a copy of sexual politics of meat, like you say, sadly, as relevant today as it was when it first came out. But a huge thank you, for all you do care. I really appreciate it.

Carol J. Adams  49:39

Thanks for all your great questions Jim and for your own role in in helping us think about these issues.