Heaven’s Devils hosts Nathan & Shyam
Jim Moore 0:12
Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from their political and ethical to the practical. Are we doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. This week, I'm going to be chatting with the hosts of the heavens devils podcast, a podcast dedicated to all things Forest Green Rovers and in fact, a podcast that is now the official podcast of Forest Green Rovers. For folks who don't know Forest Green Rovers have been described as the greenest football club in the world. They're the first and only vegan Football Club and the first to be certified as carbon neutral by the United Nations no less. So we're going to be chatting about all things Forest Green Rovers, how did two New Yorkers come to support them? And what were they doing? Travelling all the way from New York to nailsworth? So we'll get into all of that. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Nathan in Cheyenne the hosts of the heavens devils podcast.
So Nathan Shyam returning guests amazing to have you have you here and in the in the flesh as well.
Shyam 1:43
Yes, yeah, I need to finally meet you, James. Pleasure.
Jim Moore 1:47
It's pretty. For folks who don't know, how did you both get into veganism and why you're here?
Nathan 1:55
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, well, I guess we're gonna talk about the veganism part first. And then. Yeah, so. So on the veganism front. I don't know, I probably I don't know, eight or nine years ago, I read, I read an article in The New Yorker, I think, or something about, about compassionate consumption. And that's kind of the first thing that ever opened my eyes to the idea is that like animals can suffer, and that they are suffering at our hands. And so anyway, that sent me down a vegetarian path. Actually wasn't vegetarian for a while, even after believing I should be. But I started reading more about it. I was like, I should really need to stop eating meat. And so I became a vegetarian. Well, no, I didn't. I was still eating meat. But I believe in believing I should stop eating meat. I was out for dinner or lunch with my girlfriend at the time now wife, and I were both eating meat. And I was like, you know, questioning, like, Why do you think this is okay? Like, like, you know, interrogating her. And she's like, I think you're right. And so she stopped eating meat. So I was like, Oh, my God, I gotta stop too. So I became vegetarian. I don't know, five, six years ago. And I always felt like being vegan was the right thing to do. Yeah. But I don't know why I just never did it. And then Shawn and I sort of falling forest controllers, which I guess is the connection here. And we'll talk about that in a second. But from Bowling forest, Green Rovers, obviously, the world's most first vegan club of union club, that it just kind of pushed us over the edge, right. And that's, that was like the straw that broke the camel's back. And like said, like, let's do it. Let's just go and let's become vegan. So we actually tried it during the January, which I know, beginning, right gets like a lot of stick from vegans. But for us, it was like, really the gate? Well, yeah, the thing that got us started, and we haven't looked back, so we've been vegan now for a year and a half, not, not even half whatever, a year in however many months it has since January. Yeah,
Shyam 3:57
we're delirious. We've been in the UK for about a week. But we just have no idea what's up or down the road to drive on, or walk or walk. We're just happy to be alive. You know, being alive. Having the animals be alive is a really important thing for the two of us. Yeah, like that segue. Yeah, part of our part of our friendship before the podcast stemmed from this idea that we were both vegetarian. I, myself grew up in a Hindu household. So it was a religious and cultural thing growing up where we just didn't eat meat. Even at home, you know, my mother wouldn't cook with eggs. So, you know, this restriction. And growing up in the United States, especially where Nathan and I are from. We're from the Midwest, the United States and man that's like meat country. Like people love their barbecues. They love game day going to like an NFL game or Washington College football game.
Nathan 4:49
It would be unthinkable to have a meal without meat. Every single meal has to have meat and multiple kinds of meats in many cases.
Shyam 4:56
Yeah, so we're surrounded by it from a young age but For myself, you know, I had that family and cultural, vegetarian vegetarianism connection, and then finding other people that have similar beliefs was good. And then the more I interrogated it myself, like, Okay, I've just accepted it, and it's my way of life. But why am I really doing it? I wanted to be purposeful. And, yeah, Forest Green Rovers because Nate and I are both big football fans as well. It kind of just brought everything together our love of sport. They're good Midwestern boys, our love of football in particular. And then just the unknown. Like, we're both pretty curious guys. Sort of like what is this club with these insane kits? Like, you know, the zebra, the zebra pattern like neon green? And so yeah, that all just mixed together. And we started the podcast,
Jim Moore 5:50
once being vegan, and you both live in New York, currently. How has that been? How have you found things over there from a from a veganism standpoint? In those last 18 months? Yeah,
Nathan 6:01
not bad. There's some, some excellent, excellent vegan restaurants. But I don't think there's enough of them yet. And, but the nice thing is, like most places, even if the non vegan are offering some kind of vegan option for for everybody, so it's not bad. But now that we're here right now in the UK, and this is my first time here in Sean's first time here, I guess as a vegan. I've been blown away by how far ahead the UK is in terms of vegan food options, relative to the US. So we have a lot of room for improvement in the US. But there's stuff out there in New York, but it needs it has a lot of room for growth.
Shyam 6:41
I arrived to the UK slightly dishevelled, which we may discuss later. And soon as I got on to take the Heathrow express to Paddington, and the first thing I was able to eat was actually Marks and Spencer, little vegan, five spice, you know, Chinese not duck, little wrap. So I was like, wow, the fact that even though this is probably not the healthiest thing, it's ready made, but the fact that there's a vegan option I can just grab, that's something you still don't find in the United States, like especially New York City, it's a little bougie you know, like you're gonna have a fancy vegan night out, or you're gonna have to kind of pay a premium for it. So yeah, we've been really surprised and a little bit shocked that the ability to choose to be vegan, even on a smaller scale, day to day seems to be a bit easier here.
Jim Moore 7:27
Definitely want to dial into those differences in a little bit. But it'd be it'd be great to understand what's brought you both over here. Obviously, we talked for a screenwriter. So I'd imagine that's the driving force for what's brought you both over to the UK. And how did you get here? Which is a definitely a leading segue. Yeah, yeah, I'll probably let Nathan do the the most straightforward version.
Nathan 7:50
First. Yeah. So yeah, I'll talk about what brought us over here and then show me and
Shyam 7:53
I'll hold back the tears. I've got my sobbing out of the way. I can be coherent. Yeah.
Nathan 8:00
Oh, yeah. So Well, we started this podcast covering the Forest Green Rovers at the beginning of last season, so this is our second season doing it. We started, we learned about the club. I learned about four or five years ago, Sean, probably three years ago, we learned that it was like, you know, the greenest club in the world, which was really important to us. That's a really important value to us off the off the pitch. And then we learned that it's a vegan Club, which is also something that's really important to us in terms of the animal welfare aspect. And so once we found out there's this club out there that does all this great stuff that we think is so important. We were like, We're gonna give our time and money to talk to us sports team, let's do it towards a team that is actually, you know, doing good in the world, a team that we can root for on and off the field on and off the pitch. So that's how we started following. And then during COVID We just had some extra some free time, and just sent Shama texts and said, Hey, do you want to just like, buy all the FGR streams and make a podcast documenting the experience of like two dumb Americans like learning about this club.
Shyam 9:09
And part of it is also that we came across the dumb fact that a majority of beers are vegan. You know, we drink beers and because there's always this association of veganism of like, Oh, you must be like, and to health food, you must be extra into fitness and stuff like that. It's like, we just like drinking beer. We thought it was hilarious. We could just drink beer and BV. And what followed this club,
Nathan 9:30
but yeah, so yeah, these are falling in. Anyway, this is our We're in our second season falling the club. And we've been dying to get over here, but obviously we couldn't last year because of COVID. And so yeah, the stars aligned for us. workwise. And we were able to take this week off and come over to the UK and catch to actually three foreigners games that two of the men's games and one of the women's games. And yeah, it's just been an incredible, incredible experience for me from start to finish from for Shazam.
Shyam 10:00
I think incredible is the right adjective for me too. Because I hardly believe at times, I've hardly believed I'm here. In fact, at times I've thought maybe I'm just lying dead in the ditch, or next to the airport somewhere. And this was just been my hallucination the last hallucination before I leave this mortal plane. But it's been awesome. It's been a great trip.
Jim Moore 10:20
So we've we've alluded to it what happened, Shawn, tell us a story.
Shyam 10:26
Well, you know, the COVID pandemic giveth and taketh away. So the reason we're here, the reason we started the podcast is because of COVID, as Nathan mentioned, you know, is our way to kind of channel some energy and our passions into something that we were really cared about. And it's led to these great connections and this opportunity, as Nathan mentioned, but it also means we weren't really travelling, I had no inkling of travelling over the past like two and a half years. So, you know, we booked the tickets, everything's all good. We're set to go. We were supposed to get in here last Thursday. And so all the tickets are set Nathan's good to go on Tuesday night. I find it the right time to take a look at my passport, because okay, this is a good time to start packing tables, grabbed my passport and take a look at it. And little did I know that it's expired in April 2021. Yeah,
Nathan 11:20
so less than two days before your flight lesson. Today is more flight. Yeah,
Shyam 11:24
I realised I had an expired passport, you know, out of sight out of mind. I hadn't used it since 2017. Last time I used it. I have like several years left on it. Like I'm good. I'm good. I was not good. So, you know, my heart sank in that very moment. I basically had one day before it's meant to fly out to try to arrange an emergency passport. And it was, it was insane. Actually wasn't able to do it in one day. So I had to push my itinerary to arrive on Sunday instead of Thursday. And so that brought me an extra day to try to make the impossible happen.
Jim Moore 12:03
So what did they involve? You had to leave New York and you have to go?
Shyam 12:08
Yeah, you know. You know, London, a beautiful world city, New York. A beautiful world city can travel between them quite easily. Yeah. Yeah. six hour flight, six hour flight. Easy. Easy, easy peasy. You know, have your mail. You're good to go. Or your vegan meal on the plane. But I wanted to take the scenic crap. So I had to travel all the way to El Paso, Texas, which is the only Passport Agency office that would grant me an appointment to get an emergency passport because I was travelling within two weeks. So
Jim Moore 12:39
there are others, but it was just that they're the only ones who can fit you in.
Shyam 12:42
Yeah, there's one right there in New York City can take the train directly there. But these had no appointments I was that night after I found out my password expired. I was peppering this hotline the next day, most of call them like 30 times 35 times just getting the same people saying I need an appointment in New York and typing it up answering the same question. It was like Groundhog Day I was going insane. By the end of the day, answering the same questions about my itinerary, my you know, confirmation number, everything like that. Knowing that I had I'll never forget how much it costs to get an expedited passport at $60 because they have to warn you each time you do realise you have to pay $60 to Oh, I know. I know. I firstly at the end of it. I was like, I'm gonna pay the $60 Just tell me just tell me that it's available. But yeah, they couldn't help me out. And I ended up texting Nathan, you remember what I like texted you how I felt right. What was it like getting that text from was
Nathan 13:36
awful. I was heartbroken because I was like, oh my god, Sean's not coming with me. My pod partner. My body. We're not like this is for us. Like it's just our inaugural trip together to forest green. And
Shyam 13:49
not just any trip like this is these are meaningful matches. Yeah, I can be promoted to Ligue one. They're on the cusp,
Nathan 13:55
right. So I was crushed to get that message. Well, you didn't get the message. I got the you told me. Oh, yeah, the night before the night before, so I was like, There's no way ships coming to England. Crushed and then what happened,
Shyam 14:08
then? Yeah, just you know, I I was like, man, there's no way I can do this. I can't do it. I was crestfallen. And then I gotta give a huge shout out to my wife, Christina. Because she just saw how bummed out I was how mopey I was. And she was like, You know what, why don't you call him back and see if there's an appointment, you know, and go and so I called a call the hotline back and I'm like, Okay, we, because before when I called them to like, okay, the New York office is full, but I can get you an appointment in Honolulu, Hawaii, or San Juan, Puerto Rico, just like no, I can't go there. That's like, impossible. But yeah, really, from her encouragement, she was just like, you gotta give it a shot. And she was like, I know how much this means to you and to Nathan, you guys have worked so hard on the pod to build these relationships. So it could you know, you know, tomorrow's never promised right this could it'd be a once in a lifetime experience. So just you should try your best. And so I call them back. And there we go. I got my El Paso appointment. Just now now I had to struggle to find a 10 gallon hat I would just wasn't sartorially it was not prepared for as my next crisis. It's just wild.
Jim Moore 15:16
So New York to El Paso, El Paso back to New York. The New York was a there wasn't,
Shyam 15:23
there will be too easy, James. We didn't do it that way. So due to the kind of last minute nature of it, I had to fly from New York to Houston, and then Houston to El Paso, which, again, if people don't realise how, how large the US is to drive from Houston, Texas to El Paso, Texas, one is on the east, the other is on the west. It's like an 11 and a half hour drive. It seems it's a two hour flight just to get from one end of Texas to the next. So I had to connect at the Connect late at night, Thursday. So instead of flying to the UK, I was heading the wrong direction the other direction. And you know what I was like, I had that spirit in me, I'm giving it my best we're going to do it got to the airport, well early made my gate and everything in New York, we push away from the gate right on time to get in around eight o'clock to catch an you know, a connection an hour later to El Paso. And what happens? We get stranded on the runway due to the weather system for 90 minutes. For 90 minutes, nothing I can do. I can't get off the plane. The only way I can goes up, but we're grounded for 90 minutes. And I see that connection just vanish. And so man, that was probably the most stressful three and a half hours of my life. There were children and families on board. So I was doing my best not to go viral on YouTube, you know, to keep it together. But I was done on the inside. Yeah, man,
Nathan 16:47
because the catches his appointment was in El Paso 9:30am The next day. So if you missed his flight in Houston, he would lose the appointment and game over again. Again, yeah, we'd be screwed again.
Shyam 16:58
Yeah, and so. But you know, at the end of the flight, they're like, You know what, there are certain people that have to connect. I had 10 minutes to connect, like, people so please let them off. First. I was one of the first people I was sprinting down that I've never run too fast in my life. It was crazy. I tripped over the escalator fell down. People were concerned for me like it was gonna, it's okay. It's okay. You gotta go and just kept going, kept going. ran for my life. But when I got to the gate, plane was gone. So again, hopes are dashed. Stuck in Houston. Like, no hotel, nothing. My appointments. 930 The next morning, this is like 11 o'clock at night. So I just have like, no idea what to do. So I sleep at the terminal. Because all the you know, the airline shall remain unnamed. But all they offered me was a $50 coupon for a hotel. So I was like, yeah, yeah, nice customer service. There you go. But uh, yeah, it was just I had no idea what to do. And by that time that hotline was closed, so couldn't get another appointment. I had to find a way to get to to El Paso. So they automatically rebook me the next day, but then I find out the flight is at noon, well past the appointment. So wake up, dishevelled in the airport, call the hotline, first thing that they open, say, hey, I need an appointment. I need a plan. I have this like, I'm sorry, there's nothing that I'll pass over later in the day. Sorry, we can't help you. If you miss 930. You miss it. You miss it, you miss it. And so I really think this is the last one we've had the ups and downs was like, There's no way I might have this one. I can't get to El Paso within two hours, from seven in the morning. And so I'm basically on the verge of tears and call my wife who again, shouts to her man, just the most positive, clear thinking person. She was like, Well, why don't you try the hotline and see if they have a Houston appointment? And I was like, okay, good, I guess so like, just totally bummed out. But I was like, You know what, let me just try. She's right. Just let me say I tried my best even though I'm gonna miss this once in a lifetime opportunity of being there with my my pod bro. Nathan. So I call him up. And then who answers the phone? My guardian angel. My guardian angel, Larry. Larry at the Passport Agency. He lets me know there's a 930 appointment at the Houston office. It's like 740 in the morning. At this point. Again, I'm just peppering the hotline. And I was like, okay, very commonly. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate the help. Hey, that's great. You know, hang up the phone, sprint in the airport, hop into a car and go right to the Passport Agency. And then by 10am I had my receipt for a passport. So then I said even though I had to go to a pass I didn't make it. I didn't make it there for the passport. But the airline wouldn't let me change the flight. So I had to go to El Paso anyway for no reasons. But in case you ever there James bomb vegan Tacos. Tacos if you find yourself on a password taco I was surprised called lick lick my plate. Okay. Maybe not getting the best health code. rating. Yeah, but bomb vegan tacos. So I go there for no reason other than vegan tacos. Then go to Denver, New York, and finally make it here to be with you today. It's crazy.
Jim Moore 20:17
It's incredible. Yeah. All the way to El Paso first.
Shyam 20:23
Listen, that's how dedicated I am. That's why you were having us on this podcast dedicated to the lifestyle.
Jim Moore 20:30
Just to bring us that review of those tacos. Yeah,
Shyam 20:33
exactly. breast. Man, I like it. Yeah. Like, I just can't believe that all this has happened. And it's been an incredible week since being in the UK,
Jim Moore 20:45
where talk us through where have you guys been? Since you've been over in the UK? You mentioned obviously you've you've seen your perspective is that veganism over here is far, much further along. And we've talked electric vehicles and all kinds of environmental things as well. And you've felt like everything's been a bit further along. But where have you been in what what have you seen that's kind of led you to that conclusion? Yeah.
Nathan 21:09
So we were in London first. Alright. Actually, we weren't. I was in London while Sean was, you know, Paso, Texas, trying to be there. So I was in luggage and man, I was there for first the weekend basically, and incred like everywhere, like I just, I just put in Google vegan. And everywhere. There was just like a million vegan restaurants that popped up. And so like I had like I was spoiled for options. So every meal, I ate breakfast, lunch and dinner at a different vegan spot. both Friday and Saturday, Sunday we came out to the little this little town called Stroud, which is very close to where our club is located for a screen. It's a tiny little village. But again, I was curious, so I just searched vegan and they were like 1520 vegan restaurants, vegan, purely vegan like not restaurants with vegan options, but like actually pure vegan restaurants in this tiny little village. I was like this has to be the most vegan restaurants per capita in the world. It was unbelievable. Mind blowing. And then fish and chips like what? So anyway, yeah, blown away by the vegan options in Stroud. We are now here recording in Bristol, and Bristol also seems to have incredible vegan options. We just had an amazing pizza. vegan pizza. So yeah, I'm just blown away every place we've been just incredible vegan options,
Jim Moore 22:31
other than m&s. And Paddington? Have you had much chance to experience the same as Nathan yet? Sure.
Shyam 22:39
A little bit. I mean, so finally made it on Monday. So we spent a lot of time with the club. And so the hospitality of the club has been great there. You know, they serve all vegan food at the ground. So we got to experience that and that was really nice. Guests you've had on before Jade has also been a guest on our podcast. She happened to be at the ground as well. And now she's kind of returning to a role the club. So yeah, I mean, that was delicious food that we experienced at at the new lawn. And then yeah, we went to a couple places. We had vegan fish and chips, right. We tried that. We went over to the supporters clubs Chairman's house, and they cooked an entire vegan meals. Vegan lasagna with like, a traditional pie with like, root vegetables and stuff. Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, we got aid. I've had the m&s You know, and with you, James, we had a very nice fancy pizza. lunch yet. Yeah,
Nathan 23:38
I was gonna say like, no, no offence, James but you know, you don't think of England and food. The first place you think of for food culture, but I gotta say the food has been unbelievable, like the vegan food. Unbelievable.
Jim Moore 23:50
This reputation. I feel like
Nathan 23:53
I agree. Right after being here. I 100% agree.
Unknown Speaker 23:58
past era and it's a bit of a hangover, that reputation that English. Yeah, she's like,
Jim Moore 24:05
like any multicultural kind of city like London. And actually, the same for Bristol is packed with options from around the world, you know, so many choices. And, as you say, vegan options now as well. And particularly those two cities, I think, a wonderfully well equipped vegan point.
Shyam 24:23
Absolutely. And we were lucky enough to catch a Championship match at Craven Cottage in Fulham and we were in London. And just you know, we went out to the pub close by the
Nathan 24:33
supporters club close by that, you know, you wouldn't expect it's not vegan at all. And they had vegan option and a vegan option for us. Yeah, like we only had three options on the menu and one of them was vegan, and I was like, This is awesome. Like this is it's really becoming a huge part of the culture here and it's beautiful.
Jim Moore 24:49
Yeah, that's amazing. Amazing to hear. So I think sometimes, you know, we can get in our in our bubble of what's around and, and can think well, you know, Things aren't progressing that fast. But as I guess, I think if I think about London, maybe five, maybe 10 years ago, maybe longer, and you know, Bristol and so on those options, weren't there. A lot of those places we went to today we were talking about pirouettes, the pizza places for restaurants now across the UK, and it's become quite a neighbour, there's loads of loads of places like that. So it's great to see it kind of burgeoning, isn't it? You mentioned it being a bit bougie. In in, in New York from from from the sort of comparative options. Are there other kind of, you know, those options like in terms of the restaurants like we like we were talking about? Or is it? Is it more of a kind of prepared end of the more basic stuff?
Shyam 25:44
Yeah, I think, for me, at least, my experience has been more of the restaurants where you kind of go and they marketed it as having a culinary experience. And you're, you can't get prepared meals that are you know, vegan, there's like frozen aisles. And I think in the past couple of years really like because as we mentioned, we're Midwest boys. And Americans just love their meat man. They love their hot dogs and their hamburgers and stuff, like Beyond Meat and impossible is kind of really come on the scene. Some of the big chains over there like Burger King, made an impossible Whopper. Place I think even KFC did like a beyond Chicken Chicken Nugget over there. So we're seeing it in different areas for sure.
Nathan 26:25
It's definitely grow. Yeah, even from since the last time we talked, it's actually yeah, there's been way more options have developed for that aren't fancy dining establishments in the city. So everything's headed in the right direction. And not just New York, like, you know, I'm from a very small town and like, hillbilly country, USA, and even they're, they're starting you, you'll never know vegan restaurants. But there are VT starting to become more vegan options at restaurants that I would have never dreamed of, as, you know, a child or even a year ago, two years ago. So it's
Jim Moore 27:00
a super place obviously to the club. And you mentioned that you're kind of you know, their ethical position, their environmental stance their their veganism has all been part of that that journey in fact, pretty instrumental when your your involvement with the club. Have you seen admittedly it's you know, from limited experience so far, but you've been to you know, another another football ground and you're, you're very immersed in the football culture, at least in sporting culture, you're really interested across the gamut of sports and so on. Have you seen them kind of actually having wrinkles in terms of what this with with other with other clubs with other sports, maybe other countries? What, what's your experience been like, of of being close to the club and seeing what they're what they're achieving?
Nathan 27:45
Well, yeah, let me just first speak on like, the impact they're having on supporters because that's been something that's Dale vents, the the chairman, the owner, always talks about his the goal, one of the goals of the club is to make football fans, also fans of the environment. And then also, you know, fine fans of the environment, and fans of football, but the first one seems like a big challenge, something that you wouldn't expect, like but so we had the fortunate opportunity to meet a bunch of fans from forest green, a lot of like, traditional, you know, working class, great people, but people who, you know, grow up in meat culture, and were at the club long before Dale and are people who, I don't know, maybe it's, I guess it's a stereotype but you would that, you know, in my, in my in my, you know, ignorance, I would expect them to not, you know, kind of poke fun at vegans, you know, just like all these other clubs do. Yeah, yeah. And they've become vegan, or if not fully vegan, like, partially vegan and they try to be vegan as much as they can. It's a crazy thing to see that the club has actually impacted its own fan base. And I'm talking about fans who came not you know, fans who were locals who were supporting the club because their community club not because of the green stuff and the vegan stuff, but the club has impacted them it's impacted players as well. We know four or five players on the team are vegan now because of the club. And then yeah, outside of it, I we know that it's, it's influenced other clubs. But at the same league and below, we know that the club has served as a consultant for clubs for other clubs trying to become more more vegan friendly, trying to become more green. So yeah, it's definitely having an impact. And I think as they progress up the leagues, which is looking like they're going to do there, that impact will get amplified and they'll be more opportunity to help.
Shyam 29:43
Yeah, and I'll just add real quick too. And, you know, I guess I club like Manchester United or arsenal will never admit it. But we you know, I think we have seen for screen sort of take the lead on putting sustainability up front, you know, not just having having it be greenwashing And it seems like other clubs have really taken to that. And it's great to see a huge mirror club that has international clout and you know, name recognition, take steps to to emulate things that you know club like Forest Green Rovers has done,
Jim Moore 30:15
what you've seen, you mentioned the supporters there and kind of Dale's vision of, you know, getting them to fall in love with the environmental aspects as well as supporting of their local team and things like that. When I sort of go around the club, I've been in a been a few times in the end, you see the messaging around the club, and it goes way beyond diet tree, sort of plant based diets, it's it's talking about climate change, it's talking about animal welfare, it's talking about much broader terms. Are you seeing that level of kind of understanding like that there being a real depth of understanding of veganism, as opposed to plant based diets, you know, in in sort of supporters and your contacts with with them and players even?
Nathan 31:01
Yeah, it's a mix. Some of the players and some of the supporters we've talked to have become vegan for health reasons. But others we know for a fact that have become vegan because of the animal welfare stuff. And it's awesome, awesome. Like, one person I'm thinking of is like dumb Renard. It's awesome to see how the club has really changed hearts and changed minds. And I can think of a few supporters that we had, like anecdotally, but a few supporters who have said the same thing that the because they follow the club, they didn't follow the club for this reason, but but because they follow the club, they've been exposed to these new ideas, and these new ideas have then shifted their their behaviours. I know see, spear see two was a huge one. All the all the players watch the spear see the club had a had a role on that. And I know see spirits he had definitely had an impact on a couple of the players also that we talked to in terms of changing their behaviour.
Shyam 31:56
Yeah, absolutely. Like, the influence is there. And I think it is beyond, I think in the US, not that it's taboo, but taboo, but it's just meat is so ubiquitous, so common, that you feel like if you're going to have a conversation or dialogue, maybe leading off with the animal welfare part of part of it, which is so crucial to the lifestyle and the belief is, you know, that's going to be something that alienates someone, or that's going to be something that causes you to be maybe marginalised in a conversation. So it's always tricky, but we know you just have to meet people where they are. And that's what's so unique about FGR. Because they're doing this in this realm of sports. And, you know, again, when you think of English football, you think of the traditional pies and your pint, and maybe not someone that's tuned into animal welfare, they, you know, Hey, you want to just watch the game, right? But as something that's so integral to so many people's lives, and this kind of both in this country and internationally, the sport of football, to be able to also bring that other perspective into it has been really eye opening for us. And that's why we're so into it, and followed. It's so deeply.
Nathan 33:08
I like that point, too, because I feel like the club is, like you said, you don't want to alienate people. You don't want to make people feel like they're bad people. I mean, I was a meat eater before, you know, and I consider myself a
Shyam 33:18
bad person for others.
Nathan 33:20
Yeah, there we go. There we go. But, yeah, so So you don't want to you know, guilt people into being vegan. Because I don't know. Myself I just wasn't aware of animal suffering and the until I was and then once I was it was like, Oh my God, how could anyone ever eat meat This is awful. This is and so football, Forest Green Rovers is just a great way to introduce people to that concept without being judgmental, giving them their own time and space to come to the conclusion yourself that this is the right you know, lifestyle
Jim Moore 33:54
blueprint for sporting clubs in the US, do you think that that is almost the Trojan horse to to helping many people in sort of US society? That particular demographic who are very sporty and into their into their athletic pursuits? And so do you think the model that forest green have set is replicable over in the state? Good question.
Shyam 34:18
Yeah, it's so tough like the one thing about the US is Money talks right? And part of the reason we love Forest Green Rovers is because beyond you know, the sustainability of the environment and stuff, we feel like even as a football club, their project is to sustainably rise to the football pyramid. Right? It's to get where they want to go to ultimately maybe be a championship level team. But yeah, in the US, it's just money. Yeah. And sponsorship always talk. So if you have the money if you have the clout already, you know you have the advantage are already in its orbit, tougher for new new things to break in. With He's the thing that's sometimes a little worrying about it. But yeah, Nathan,
Nathan 35:04
I was just gonna say I think though one of the things that makes for green MC allows for for screen to work is it was and it still is a very small club. It's a small organisation. So one guy like Dale can make that massive change. And yes, some people are going to throw fit or, and never come back to the ground. But eventually you'll, you'll get enough fat you'll get the fans back and you'll attract new fans. Like if I'm trying to like imagine an NFL team, for example, just saying, Oh, we're going all vegan now. We're going carbon neutral. And I just think chaos. Would you know, Kay, it's just too big.
Shyam 35:42
Yeah, Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys are like gonna beat Nope, you're not gonna do that or any, you know, he might Marshal other owners and say, No, that's not going to be good for the brand. So veto you that Yeah,
Nathan 35:52
I think it's gonna be a casual. Gradual Trent change like,
Shyam 35:57
as to be more grassroots like coming from people demanding it. And I
Nathan 36:01
think it'll get there like, I went to a game the other I don't know, a few weeks ago now a few months ago, whatever. And they actually had some great vegan options in the ground that I'd never in the past, you would never see vegan options in a sports stadium in the US and they're coming and as people start trying them who are vegan and start realising like, Hey, this is actually I could I could, you know, eat this, like, I could live a lifestyle. I think that's the more of the path of the US is going to take a gradual shift, rather than something radical, as radical as for screen did, which is we're all you know, we're going green, we're going vegan completely. It hasn't happened, though. I think there's a few small clubs in the US who have done it. But again, it's not, I can't see an NFL or NBA team doing it. That's interesting.
Unknown Speaker 36:46
So it's almost like you think
Jim Moore 36:49
you us, it's within, within the existing systems. You know, often is held up as progress, you can argue whether it is or it isn't a people like Burger King on whatever, a vegan option. And then lots of people go, Oh, that's amazing. And then I speak to other people who say, no, they're just after the one person in the vegan group, they don't want them to mess up the rest of the order. And want them to take the other five people with different restaurants, vegan options, so they're vegan, we'll go with them. Yeah, and they can still sell five more
Unknown Speaker 37:21
burgers to sell. Interesting,
Jim Moore 37:23
that kind of thing. So actually, there, there's I mean, don't quote me on get sued by kfc or somebody. I saw somebody had put out a statistic about KFC s annual profits, in a sense, doing vegan options, and that they were selling just as much meat if
Nathan 37:42
not more. Yeah, I was gonna say I'd be interested to see the numbers on that. Yeah. So it's
Jim Moore 37:46
kind of interesting. So it almost seems like from what your perspective would be that within the existing system, there may be more vegan options. But it would be difficult for a sort of a maverick owner to turn around and say, right, that my club is going to stand for this. Yeah, I guess like, you know, and obviously, they are not the same thing. And I'm not saying they are but if I think about like the way say Colin Kaepernick was treated, and the NFL sort of almost rallied round and said, right, this person and what they stand for, we can't have in the league, essentially, they said that again, disclaimer. Yeah. Whether that was said out loud, or the reality is that a very talented player is not playing
Shyam 38:32
Yeah, in a vegan as well. Right? He was vegan for I'm not sure if he still is, I believe he's a vegan.
Jim Moore 38:38
But he's not playing for a reason that is off the pitch for their for their views, and then there's their choice of position. So you think that there might be the same kind of thing if they wince kind of character said right, I'm gonna buy the 40 Niners or something?
Nathan 38:52
Yeah, the NFL. Yeah, just like you said, The NFL has to agree on any new owner. So if someone like Dale Vince came in the NFL, like the other owners of the NFL, I would never allow him to allow it to happen. Yeah.
Shyam 39:03
Yeah, it's a billion multibillion dollar a year. Enterprise, the NFL. Yeah, I can say that for most sports. Right. So it is about the bottom line, you know, and, and we get frustrated with that too. Because, you know, we mentioned my Odyssey to Texas. You know, getting to the passport office from the airport. Everybody in Texas drives a tank. It's like you see giant SUVs, and then I think that's one thing that's kind of been refreshing for us here. It's like, we know the lanes are narrow, but it's nice to see people drive electric vehicles. It's nice for Nathan to roll around London, and only like electric vehicle caps, you know? And that's the one thing where we feel like it's just being the progresses not fast enough. In the US, you know, because if it's the way things are and the getting's good, people go for it, and maybe that long term isn't the best best Outlook or the best approach.
Jim Moore 39:57
I'm asking you to a big crystal ball type of question. Here, but how does that possibly change because that's quite deep rooted societal issues like climate change, depressive, we just don't have the time to sort of slowly evolve through these, you know, and Dale's talks about this and has ripped up the rulebook when it comes to, you know, sponsors. I mean, having a football club who has Sea Shepherd as a, as a, as a sponsor, which is essentially an activist group would be unheard of. In this country 15 years ago, 20 years ago. So, so how, how do we, and he's, you know, he's what I learned voice, sadly, many other owners who are doing anything similar, or people in society doing anything similar, and everything is quite slowly, slowly evolve this evolve that? What, what's, what's the solution? Do you think? I mean, are we talking revolution on the streets? Is that the route we have to go down?
Shyam 41:02
I mean, I Yeah, yeah. That's the thing. It's Yes, yes. Thank you.
Nathan 41:09
Good night. Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's only going to happen through gradual change, unfortunately. But you're like you say, we don't have time for gradual change. Yeah,
Shyam 41:21
but I don't think anything Dale, Vince is going to be the last visionary either. Like he's, you know, like you were saying, James, like, it would have been unheard of. But he managed to do it. Yeah. Even though he's the lone voice. Yeah. And I still have that faith for our society as United States as a, you know, a superpower who has all this economic clout, you know, you know, sometimes we like to believe that we can have all things like we can have our lifestyle, things can be great. And we'll have a green future, right, that's going to be clean, and the environment will be great.
Nathan 41:56
Yeah, you can't, I think you just need, that's the kind of Dale's whole mantra is, you can do the things you love, but in a different way. And that's kind of what we have to show people, that you can still do the thing, you know, you can still go to NFL game and have an amazing burger and like, whatever, but in a different way, you know, in a, in an eco friendly way. There's, there's, they'll set Yeah, like you say deal, setting the blueprint for it, it's just the other teams need to adopt it. And,
Shyam 42:25
and a big thing, a big thing, no matter what is going to be finding the joy in it. You know, I can say because it is a it is kind of a depressing topic, you know, it can get it can get to very dark thoughts. And, yeah, a lot of pessimism, but we're trying to find the joy in this club that join the sports that we love. I'm now have been inspired to try to find a genuine carbon offset programme, because I have to make up for this insane journey that I took just to get here. You know, that's probably the most ironic part is, you know, the the flights I had to take to get to visit go see a green club, you know, but, you know, I learned I'm gonna learn from it. Like, I have to see, okay, what are some ways that are what's going on out there, and you have to look for the positive and for what you can do? And who you can be with, like, you know, who is who are your people? Who's going to support you? Who can you build a community with? And, you know, I think that's probably the way forward. Anything guaranteed No, but I'd rather I'd rather, you know, be sitting here talking to you, James, with Nathan, buddy vegans podcast, talking about how it's changed our lives for the better than just sitting at home.
Nathan 43:36
Yeah. And that, yeah, just try to stay optimistic as things have changed dramatically, very quickly, which is a good thing. And so if things maybe, if you think there's gonna be an exponential change, you know, change it, there's still I don't know, there's room for optimism when you do if you do take a step back and look at how much things have changed a year ago, five years ago to now I think that's how I stay optimistic anyway, it's like I see good things happening, things are changing now at the rate they knew to yet but maybe, you know, with, there'll be there'll be an exponential change. And so we'll get there eventually because more people will change at a faster rate than have so far in the past.
Jim Moore 44:15
I think sometimes we aren't guilty of anyway looking at the big the big systems in play big businesses so on and so forth and being disheartened that they aren't moving fast enough. Right. And looking at I know what you're saying about this, you know, speaking to people who in the supporters club who would never have entertained veganism years before and because of their involvement with this club and other people at a grassroots level other people who were involved in the club, yeah, they've changed their lives and and then influencing others. And so I guess, you know, when you look at it from a grass roots perspective, there's there's room for more optimism and think if you're always looking at looking for a solid Shouldn't you might not find it. Yeah. If you're sort of side by each other, we're probably, you know, more likely to influence other people than then big businesses are
Nathan 45:11
100% Yeah.
Shyam 45:11
And I think it'd be it's not gonna be one solution either. You know, when you you work to build community, you're gonna find many solutions. And Nathan, I, you know, privilege to work with young people. So we see the ideas that they have, you know, the energy that we have, you know, we're old fogy, elder millennials. You know, we'll be we'll be hobbling down the street soon enough, you know. But yeah, just cash optimistic. I think there are going to be visionaries like Dale vents, I think gonna people that want to get the word out, like you James and talk about, you know, the significance of being vegan. So of, you know, being able to communicate that sort of thing. So it's not just one type of skill that's going to be needed
Nathan 45:49
and shelter. You know, that's another reason that I'm optimistic is we do work with young people. And when I was young, when I was a teenager, I didn't even know like, veganism as a concept or even vegetarian, like, I couldn't imagine, there's people that actually don't eat meat that was completely foreign to me. Now, all of the young people we know know, like, they're very aware of veganism, and a lot of them, some of them practice it, several others would like to, but they live in a house where their parents cook for them. And they don't really have choice. But they always say, you know, when I get out of here, when I go off to university, I'm going to become vegan. And it's like, that never existed when I was in school, and so that the the culture is absolutely changing in the right direction. It's just how fast is it going to, you know, how fast is gonna happen?
Jim Moore 46:34
Yeah. The hope in the hopes and the kids. Yeah. Yeah,
Shyam 46:38
it's your problem now. I mean, actually, I want to give a shout out to younger people as well, because I can remember when I was young, and growing up, there is a big push around the 90s of like, hey, recycle, do these take these actions that are good for the planet. And the emphasis was always on individual responsibility. And again, sometimes I think that can go to a negative place like Nathan had mentioned, where it's like, you are judgmental of others, Oh, you didn't make the choice to be vegan, you're bad. So I think sometimes when we had that individual responsibility way of thinking, it was easy to go down those paths. But young people today have a more sophisticated worldview. They say like, Well, hey, we don't have an option for vegan food or vegetarian food in this place, or at home, I don't have it, but I'm interested in looking into it. Yeah. And they understand it's like, hey, the reason that things are this way is because there's a system that, you know, provides incentives to do things the way they've always been done and not change. And so I'm just really happy to see that awakening, away from like, and I still feel so I'm so settled to it's like, Ah, man, I was thinking when I took those flights, like, how much did I personally, like, destroy the planet today? Or, you know, Can I can I recycle my, my way out of this. But I know, that's not the way you know, it's about trying to build substantive change with other people, and having the society in the conditions be better, rather than just like, you know, what, I'm going to make sure I recycle every day, I'm not gonna get another plastic bag in my life, you know, I'm going to do my best to do those things. Right? Bring my own containers in a recycle. But I know that alone isn't going to do it. Yeah,
Jim Moore 48:19
that's really interesting point, I see that when we look back, because we're similar ages, I guess, when we look back at that, that sort of era early 90s. And that kind of individualistic response to to climate change, or global warming is it was probably more more called back in those days, was all part of the same systems or the language of the same system was like, Whoa, you know, this is your fault to sort out, even though there's 100 companies that are causing, you know, 70% of the world's emissions. But it's your your issue to sort out and you say, I think that kids now think about my nieces and nephews have got a much more sophisticated view that says, Yes, I need to take individual responsibility for the things within my control. Actually, I need to also apply whatever voice I have whatever pressure I have, to those in power to change those systems that are causing the harm, which I think is a really interesting point. You might
Shyam 49:18
Yeah, and I just hope we can support them well enough. You know, I think that's kind of the real challenge. And, and again, that's why I think it's a perfect mix of football and veganism and climate is, you know, it's 11 guys on the pitch. You know, you can have a good game and a bad game. If you're 1111 players on the pitch. Sometimes you need the 12, the 12 player in the stand, right? So we it's together that you've, you know, face the tough times and you celebrate the awesome times, which we're hoping to do on Saturday against Bristol Rovers. And you know if Jared gets promoted to Ligue one, but that sense of like, hey, this can be a social thing. You don't have to go it alone. And it may be hard and maybe difficult. You have to ask questions that aren't comfortable. But you don't have to do it alone. You can do it together. And, and yeah, I think that's been the most heartening thing. So thinking about this club helps to keep the pessimism and sort of like the sadder parts of it at bay for me.
Jim Moore 50:16
I just, you know, thinking about turning back to sort of football, that through that through that as well, the, you know, the, the potential if forest green get promoted on Saturday, which they'd like to do to have a chance to do should we say there's an opportunity to, they need to draw more the potential for the the positive stories that that will generate and the interest in the club and the you know, they'll they'll no doubt come with it, lots of quote unquote, banter and all the rest of it, but within that, there'll be some understanding of what is it that this club do that's different? Who are they who is this Dale, Vince, what's his sheet see Shepherd on the back of their shirt, and that will be introduced to a whole new audience and that that's really exciting. You know, even if you don't like football, well, there's, there's an organisation who have the ability to put themselves in front of a lot more people with names like Sea Shepherd that people who listen to this might might know more than they know football, you know?
Nathan 51:18
Yeah, it's like the, the extra motivation for us to root for a club like this is, the better they do, the more the word gets out, you know, that they're in Ligue one, like you say they're going to the, they're gonna have such a wider audience than they have now if they go to the championship, which is the goal huge massive audience to spread the word so when you're rooting for the club, you're not just rooting for the people that you that you know and love to succeed you're also rooting for the message to get amplified. And yeah, I'm gonna go one that's gonna happen
Jim Moore 51:50
whether whether folks like it or not, football has a lot of eyeballs on it. So yeah, you know that that that's the truth. So why not and it is an avenue that hasn't really been explored by anybody else. Yeah. Yeah. Just just we were getting close to time to wrap up but I want to turn right back to forest green and your particular personal journeys. How have the club kind of welcomed you in because you haven't, you've got some proper title now with your podcast, unofficial official supporters podcast of the year or whatever. I
Shyam 52:29
believe we're allowed to put OBE or MB after our names. Queen came.
Nathan 52:34
We did get knighted yesterday. Not a joke. Not knighted by knighted by that name by the FGR supporters club. Yeah, yeah. But no, we are. Yeah, we're the official official podcast of the Forest Green Rovers. But yeah, the club has just been amazing. Amazing. And it's like, I don't know why because we're just two idiots who do about 90 minutes of nonsense a week. religiously based on football. But really just having fun, you know, around the culture of the club. had been so yeah, just so warm. So kind so welcoming to us. It's been unbelievable.
Shyam 53:11
And at all levels, you know, whether it's, you know, Dale vans or Henry stones, the CEO, you know, they welcomed us on Match Day on Monday into the directors box, to have a little bit of vegan food and to kind of meet some people before the match. And then we spent the match in the south stand with the fans. And man, what's the term they use? Nathan, when things are going on here? Oh, okay. Oh, you're thinking of that either Gemini. But you know, we celebrated two goals on Monday. Oh Lim twins. They're really good for Lynn
Nathan 53:42
but ya know, it's so it's not just the club that's been so great. The people both the fans and the players and the coaches everyone has been so kind to us. It's kind
Shyam 53:51
of hilariously, everybody was asked me Oh, so you made it everybody knew about my password. From you know, the guy in the south stand. You know, with the with the great nickname to rob Edwards. We saw the manager. We just happened to see him outside the ground when we arrived, because he was doing a promotional thing for an electric van outside. Yeah, we just got to, you know, DAP him up real quick. And he's like, Oh, you made it. So the fact that everybody knew about it, it was just like, um, this club is just something else. It's
Nathan 54:17
alright, because we've been blown away. We were brought in because of the vegan stuff because of the Eco stuff. But the culture of the club, the community, the family is just unbelievable. So anyone out there if you're looking for a football club to support and you're obviously vegan, I would assume if you're listening this podcast, I mean foreskin rovers have at all incredible stands out the pitch incredible humans have involved with the club and then great football to going up to Ligue one
Jim Moore 54:43
place to wrap up wonderful stuff. So they play Bristol Rovers on Saturday, and that's the chance to get promoted. You'll both be there. We will
Nathan 54:53
be there maybe for two matches. So to match the men's game in the women's game yeah.
Unknown Speaker 54:59
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Amazing.
Jim Moore 55:01
Then when he back in New York
Nathan 55:02
Sunday, Sunday,
Shyam 55:04
you know, unless I leave my passport somewhere
Jim Moore 55:08
expired between Yeah,
Shyam 55:11
the only gave me a passport of the lasted for five days. I'll be like Cinderella again.
Jim Moore 55:16
This has been amazing chatting with you again. Thanks for Thanks for coming all the way to the UK to call on the bloody vegans. Yeah, that's it. It's amazing what an honour.
Shyam 55:25
Pleasure to meet you. And finally, last thing,
Jim Moore 55:30
safe travels and best of luck to forest green for the weekend.
Nathan 55:32
Thank you. Thank you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai