Rebel Vegan Life author Todd Sinclair

Jim Moore 0:12

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. Before we get into the episode of handler should do a little bit of admin for you. If you would like to support the show, and you are an apple podcasts user. Do head over to the buddy vegans podcast on there, where you can subscribe. You can also subscribe to a bloody vegans patron package through that Apple podcast app for just 99 pence a month. And that will support the show and give you early access to episodes and the like. So do feel free to do that if you feel so inclined. You can also head over to Patreon search for the bloody vegans podcast. And there are a number of support tiers that you can support the podcast with their in exchange for all kinds of different things early access to episodes and merchandise and bits and pieces like that. So that is the shameless plugging done. Let's get on to the episode at hand. So in this week's episode, I chatted with author and activist Todd Sinclair. He's the author of rebel vegan life a radical take on veganism for a brave new world, as well as the author of rebel vegan life and essential plant based nutrition Survival Guide, and rebel vegan ultimate travel guide for plant based adventures in a brave new world. So three books in a year, it just prolific and they are wonderful as well. All three books are really great resources. Whether you've been vegan for five minutes or all 50 years, you'll get something from these books. And from Todd's story, which is fascinating in itself. Todd grew up on a dairy farm in Canada, with all of the kind of the things that you would imagine he'd witnessed, he'd witnessed and experienced those. And it was only later on in life through his travels, that he discovered veganism actually through some time where he was really unwell and spent some time in a monastery. I'm not going to do this story, any justice. I'm gonna leave it to Todd. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and author and activist Todd Sinclair.

Todd Sinclair 2:49

Wow, well, it wasn't I always say I've gone from one end of the spectrum to the other because I grew up in a huge dairy farm. So it wasn't something I ever thought in my wildest dreams, I was one of those people, and I'm embarrassed to say where I like leave and made fun. When I first heard of vegans, I don't know, 2030 years ago, I couldn't get my head around it because I had immersed myself kind of in the, you know, I think there's the word is carnist kind of ideology or or world. So what got me into it, I think Well, originally, it would have been to kind of long story short, really health. I mean, I was I became very ill, I ran a travel company in Asia. And I travelled throughout Southeast Asia and had very trusted, even local street food vendors and restaurants and cafes and little quirky little family run places. And I had a pretty strong constitution and I was getting ill and I was eating obviously meat on the road. And I and that really made me think something's happening here. And so it was health that got me there. But I had had a little bit so I don't think it just happened overnight. I mean, I was already listening to people and listening to the arguments, I was taking my head out of the sand in a way you know, I've been conditioned that, you know, eating meat was natural and normal and, and even necessary. In life, it was just the way of the world and, and obviously that gets challenged. Well if you're open to it, I think that's the thing if you're opening to look and to be challenged, and so different people on some of the tours that I was organising and leading, we're talking about their lives and and I'd always be interested in telling me about the you know, some of the philosophy of veganism. And so I was slowly that was seeping in and my my belief system was being challenged. And then when I got really violently ill I went to somewhere I felt really safe which was bizarrely enough, a Buddhist monastery that I knew well because I might tourists I worked with them and befriended them and they used to Let us come by groups and say the monastery and feed us this vegan meal. And I'd have to say to really sorry, everybody, there's no meat on the plate today. And, and anywhere I went there, I had a very good friend, the guy who I ran the tours with the monk there, and they took me in and, and I kind of was nursed back to health in this quiet Oasis, it really was quite amazing. And, and was explained some of this not just, it's more than ethical come to the spiritual side of veganism, and I'm not a very spiritual person, to be honest, you know?

Well, I, you know, not in a huge way. And, and they explained kind of, you know, putting, you know, not to have dead energy and flesh in you and to be pure of that, how important that was. But then the health aspect was that, you know, they put me on this herbal remedy, and this plant based diet, they didn't even really tell me, I was not explained, this is, you know, a vegan diet of judo that just happened, I got instantly better I felt the benefits. So that really inspired me. So I thought when I go back out into the world, and I knew I had to, I was going to try to make this integrate this into my life. And, and that was, you know, had its own challenges because I wasn't like I was home in my home and I could go down to the Tesco metro or the Sainsbury's and go to the vegan aisle. I was in, you know, the middle of I was in Vietnam, actually, at that time, and I was flying to Laos, then a few days. And I had to find ways of making this work on the road, with sometimes limited resources. But I was pretty determined, then, you know, I'd like to, I decided that I wanted, I wanted to put this core belief, I was kind of already thinking back to some of the things that I took for granted, or I assumed and I was, I was almost getting upset with myself that I hadn't questioned this earlier. So So yes, I went out there and I had to then kind of relearn and I had to kind of all the all the local restaurants that knew me so well, of course, they just assumed they knew exactly what I liked. And I had a bit of power because I'd have groups of you know, dozens of people come through their doors and, and I was one of those people I was like a vegan Gordon Ramsay, I'd come in and rearrange the furniture and tell the kitchen staff what to do. And so anyway, I never forget, I came out of the the monastery just outside away and northern Vietnam and the hills. And I came to the town, way the town, which is an interesting town anyway, it's a dusty little town in a way and I was walking down the street just on my own, I hadn't, I didn't have a big group with me, I thought I could, you know, just quietly go from A to B. And, and then I heard this screaming Ah, it's you come in, come in, come in. And they dragged me and sat me in the window seat and chatted, but then at a bit later I had, well first I had this I had the coconut fresh coconut because I love my fresh coconut. And they knew that like I, I had been there for months, maybe eight, nine months. And then the next thing you know, the chef comes out with this steaming plate. I knew exactly. It was my favourite dish, they would have made me dozens of times. And of course, it was a big, it had chicken, I think it even had beef, it likely had a mix of animals and I had to go oh, this is this is my first challenge. You know, I have to somehow respect this culture. And, and talk about this. And kind of, you know, make my take on everything I've learned and all the confidence I've just barely kind of gathered and mustard and do it in a really nice way and explain that now. I don't consume any animal products and this is why and we had that discussion and I was really impressed at how the positive response because you know, they very much listened and wanted to learn and I think South Eastern cultures anyway Well, they're very polite, obviously. But they're also they, you know, traditionally didn't have a lot of meat in their diet and they do it's a culture until Westernisation you know, didn't have a lot of the chronic diseases and the things associated with fast food and meat. And so they were very responsive. And I went into the kitchen with them and explained what was vegan and what wasn't, you know, because at first I was like no, no, this no what no Belkin notice. And we literally just physically went in at veganised up parts of their kitchen and they may be of course they may be my favourite dish without meat and and it really changed. It boosted my confidence as well that I can go out there in the world with a big group of people and and take this on and make this work and it was a really lovely experience. And then when I go back to this little town or other little towns, they would get all excited and they go, come come come and we've just had a new vegan menu or plant based menu and they'll show me like you're gonna they've added things I've suggested or whether they created their own. And that was, that was really lovely because I thought, you know, just by sharing and opening up

without it without it being too heavy, I didn't want it to be too strong about, you know, right and wrong, it was more about explaining me and why I come to this and my choices, my personal choices, and and it made our connections actually deeper if anything, opened up my world. And that was really interesting because I was scared it would close my world. So it was a slow process it was becoming vegan was really something that while it was a health reason, I always say I came for the health and a lot of people say this come for the health kind of state for the animals for the environment. As you start to learn more, and you do that deep dive, but definitely on the road, it would have been seven years ago now. I I think it really did open things up for me and really, all my connections there just got stronger. I was my authentic self, I was feeling I was you know, I was proud I was living kind of my best life. And, wow. Now now and like I say there's a few restaurants still there in Southeast Asia, they even call it the Tod special where they've created maybe a curry or foe, and they've, they might put different proteins like jackfruit in it, and, and created these dishes and got excited about it, you know, and realise that they've realised also that the world is changing. And before they likely introduced a meat heavy diet because of tourism, because they thought well, the Westerners or the tourists want yeah, you know, everything's centred around meat on a plate. And, and I you know, with a bit of time and with the realising Wait a minute, we need to respond to this to almost veganism is coming, you know, on the map. And that was nice to see. And I saw that evolve over the next five years while I toured throughout that region. And I slowly maybe tried to have little of influence and veganize you know, that little restaurant in cafes, I knew, but I saw it change. And that was wonderful. So yeah, it was quite a journey on the road in Asia.

Jim Moore 12:17

Sounds sounds incredible. I'm fascinated by this time in the monastery, I just the whole the whole premise of that like that. It's almost like from a film. You know, this, this sort of, you know, the, the, the hero kind of, you know, brought back to health through through this monastery is just just incredible. It's got a kind of a filmic quality to it that that story.

Todd Sinclair 12:42

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it really was a magical time, because I'd never really stayed there. I had travelled through there. And I worked with Mr. Van and the abbot there that had bunk. And because we did these Motorcycle Tours do the, the mountain sides, and there's this monastery there. So I asked around and was introduced. And we had to be very careful. And we ate separately. You know, there was no meat. And it was I was wondering if these harsh conditions would be okay for my travellers. But they welcomed us in and, and we had these meals I outside and and they were just this this amazing moment that everybody had this quiet, it was so silent, you know, and that's what my my guess just by eating, when we would have these tours, and this was a part of it, the lunch basically. And we would eat outside and the monks would come out and put down the meals and off they would go and of course I would go in and meet with them. And there's a few of them that spoke better English and make connections. And then when I was there and Ill I just it's to me, it just seemed like the natural thing because I always felt so safe there. And and they really did take the Edit, it was a beautiful I was very, very blessed actually. And now with COVID Of course I haven't been back there for a couple of years. And one of the first things I want I wanted to do it in February March but there was still high still big restrictions actually in Southeast Asia generally. But when I have the opportunity, I will be going back and and and that's one of the places so many different places, but definitely that monastery that changed my life, you know, they trust formed my life more than I've anywhere on Earth baby and helped me connect with McConnell, my authentic self and see it as something that was not just viable, but something that would enrich my life. So I'll go back and now it wasn't like staying in a five star hotel. I could have gotten, you know, somewhere a lot more polish down the road at Hanoi. But you know, I was it was a very simple Sparta. Kind of, I was there for a couple of weeks. But it was just so there was someone who's not you know, highly spirit Shall it felt almost spiritual awakening? Definitely.

Jim Moore 15:04

Yeah, yeah. Having the, you know, these this sort of series of epiphanies, this discovery, this life changing kind of experience. And then I'm just intrigued about looking back at your, your early years on the dairy farm, and how you kind of come to feel about those times. And obviously, it's really complex, because, you know, families, you know, that they're so important to us are so intrinsic, your childhood memories, you know, can often be filled with, with positivity and all these kind of things. But then you have this kind of this epiphany, this discovery, this change of viewpoint. And, and that could be really difficult to square. So I'm kind of, if you're, if you're comfortable sort of talking about it, I'm fascinated to understand how you how you feel about that.

Todd Sinclair 15:56

Yes. Well, that was when I when I started the process of writing the book. And that was during lockdown. So I almost had this, you know, well, this enforced kind of isolation. So I could, I could go there and do the research. And some of the research just wasn't getting the latest science and, and nutritional advice and all these things. But it was, it was my story, I realised as well, a little bit, you know, that. Yeah, especially that first book. And it was difficult to write and I had to be, I was very mindful that I had to be cautious and careful and respectful, I guess, of my heritage. Because I you know, I grew up on a, it was a mixed used farm, but the main main income came from dairy, we have huge, like, hundreds, heard of hundreds of dairy cattle and some beef cattle actually. And so I, I found that very hard to cut it, I wanted to tell it, and I knew it needed to be told, and I was even while I was writing it, I knew that obviously, I'd come from a system and a belief system that I now kind of could see for itself. And question and see the other side. But when I was writing the book, things came back to me that I I had not remembered since I was a child, I would be you know, working on my own and this kind of echo chamber, and, and then I'd have, I'd wake up at night and remember something and I would remember i and things that were and I hate is such an emotive word, but abuse really, you know, this kind of normalised abuse, and I was very careful not to use that because, you know, my family were, you know, they treated their animals the best they could, and they had a, you know, is a it was a farm where cows did go out and graze and, you know, they cared, I remember my grandfather, even my father staying up all night with a sick animal, you know, I mean, it was something, there were commodities at the end of the day, but still, you know, they, they were very much involved in wanting the land to be well treated, and the animals to be well treated. But I also recognised that it was still, there were things that, you know, as a child, I had blocked and, and things like gaming, like the little calves, dehorning them, you know, taking the horns and burning them out, and, and really, you know, things that I won't go into it because it's some of them were luckily, for me, I've had to face that there have just normalised but um, you know, some things that I had to confront as well, and that I hadn't really, at this stage of my life because I just kind of well, that's in the past. So it was, it was really, it was that bit was a little strange to write. And I and I hope I got the balance, right between this fact that I did grow up. And I think most people do, I mean, let's face it, you know, we grow up thinking that it's all kind of natural and normal, I was just, you know, really that system, I was part of that food system, part of the farming, the agricultural industry, I was born within it, it was like five generations since my family came from Scotland. And 1830 something, you know, on a ship, they would have come over they cleared the labs, literally, you know, it was one of my ancestors would have cleared the lab that's my family farm and cut down the trees and ploughed the fields for the first time. So it's quite an incredible you know, that that connection, that link so to understand that, you know, and I knew that even my family likely had in my, what it would be my my father, my grandfather, my uncle, maybe would have conflicts themselves about some of the things they were doing and had to just get on with that job. But I knew they cared about the environment and all those things. And you know, what amazes me is that at the time within it, it took me a long time to reflect I just said this is you Without somehow that conditioning is so strong. That's what amazes me like I knew something like I knew that I pulled away from things. But I was involved in things that were abuse that was normalised violets, and I can recognise it is that now, and it can be disturbing and shocking. And yet I would go to I remember as a child, like my parents would go away in the summer, stay on our holiday, and we would go to a zoo and be fighting zoos, very uncomfortable, I couldn't smile and the photographs, I would didn't want to go into the enclosures. I looked at the animals in those cages or pens or whatever, these exotic animals and knew that knew that there was a sadness.

And maybe, I recognise that sadness now. Although the farm animals, it was just a different thing, somehow I knew something's wrong. And people used to say to me, as a child, why can't you get a smile, you look like you're not having fun. And I just was just not comfortable with that whole concept of these animals. And I remember I was supposed to hide, hold this baby tiger or something. And I was like, no, not doing that. I just thought the whole thing was wrong. And, and yet, I, you know, the farming was just something that was the way of the world for me. And it had been, and it was all around me, I was in a farming community, I grew up in this small island, that was not that small. It's one of the 10 provinces Prince Edward Island on the east coast of Canada. And it's farming and fishing. You know, that's kind of the livelihoods of the community that I grew up with. So now for me to go wow, you know, to my journey is quite, from one end to the to the other end, I kind of it's kind of extreme, but I think now that it now actually, you question me about it. But yeah, I mean, the, those those things at the time, I remember being uncomfortable and sad at times, I remember playing with like, the calves when they were born and that, you know, there's nothing more sweet than, than calves, you know, and I bet hearing the crying hearing the crying is at night as well. And, and, and seeing that and seeing all those things. So from very, very young eyes. So you do just kind of think, well, well, we have to drink milk, and this is the way it has to be and Okay. Yeah. And And now, I wish I would have crushed it, obviously earlier. And and I think, Wow, I can't believe I didn't connect those dots. But it took me a while it took me quite a while. And and it's still Yeah, I mean, I'm proud of Canada, though, in the farming community, they're, you know, they've moved along way. You know, they've taken they've taken cotton milk off their food charts. So the dairy is through there is changing dramatically. Many farmers don't have to transition. It's impressive. As a country, I think they're leading the ways in some ways, you know, I think a lot of politicians putting their heads in the sand and don't want to deal with, you know, the climate crisis is there, but they don't want to deal with the farmer, the agricultural business, but they have taken dairy off health guidelines and off my plate, they call it and 10% I think the latest thing of Canadians are identify as vegan or vegetarian. And that's Wow, that's pretty incredible. So, and even my family, you know, now that I've, I'm out and proud vegan, you know, that was quite a thing in itself. And I, yeah, they've respected that. And they're listening. And I remember barbecues as a child with just these big things with, you know, our steaks on them. And that there was a pride there, you know, this is our cows, steaks and hamburgers. And, and now this, now they rec recognise that this should be reduced. My mother specifically, you know, has much less meat on the plate and very sparingly, and is trying to but it's so ingrained, I see my, you know, my father's family and the different siblings and meat is just always the centre. So it's, it's a total rethinking of that cognitive dissidence, it's, that's something I'm really interested in, as well as and the book is that I had it for so long, how that happens and how that manifests itself. I hope I haven't rambled on I could talk all day, like

Jim Moore 24:25

no, not at all, not at all, and I could listen all day, to be honest, is too fascinating. And what was that relationship always like that, you know, they were respect receptive when you first told them, You know, I can I can imagine, like from a, you know, coming from the background that you came from, you know, an established dairy farm, so on and so forth. When you first sort of said, I've had this, you know, this series of incredible experiences, and this is this is a belief system that I that I have now on hold or hold dear. What was the response? Like?

Todd Sinclair 24:57

Yeah, it was mixed. It was Next, but it's like anything first it has to be absorbed and explained. And, you know, the hard thing is, is I didn't want to be confrontation, I didn't want to get to down the, the ethical route. I wanted to talk about health, I tried to think okay, if I'm gonna do this, I don't want to be it's very confronting I think vegans generally, a lot of society find a confronting, there's that, you know, I call it moral schizophrenia, like, you know, they, they against animal cruelty and love animals, absolutely. 100%. And yet, they're, you know, they're with their money, they're going out, and they're supporting, obviously, abusive, abusive animal practices or, you know, eating meat. So similar thing, I didn't want it to be that confrontation. So for me, I went in originally, now it has expanded that conversation, but I went in at a health, purely health. And I wanted, I wanted to go in there as well, because I was worried about my family, you know, my family had to have such a dairy especially I remember, my grandmother going out, you know, we have this barn and had the big, the dairy vats, where all the cow's milk would go in before the big trucks would take them off to the, you know, the dairy plants. And with a jug and just scooping it out, so was full fat fold, like just, you know, with all the, you know, lactose juices, and whatever was in that cow, it wasn't like the 2% you buy at a supermarket, and that's what we'd pour into our glasses. So, so with my family, I was also not doing it, I didn't want to be confrontational, that there's a right and wrong and the ethics that let's go down that route, even the environmental route, necessarily, I want to talk about me and my health, and why it's important and, and try to explain it from my perspective, and then hopefully inspire them as well. But it was it was sad for me as well, to be honest, because some of the nicer moments, my father always just get up and make breakfast and he makes these amazing, kind of a breakfast that he'd go, you know, you get the eggs, and he would crack them over, they make us all eggs, eggs, and toast, and sometimes bacon, but always pretty much always eggs. And even as a child going off to school, it wasn't my mother who did that my father made that meal of the day. And so it was that time that you had with with my father or we have a sibling that I had with our father that was you know, he's making food is in the kitchen. It was really, it was such a wonderful time. And even when I went home when since I moved, I'm based in London, I treasured those times, coming in early, coming down to the kitchen table early and dad making. They're making eggs, and us sitting down and having breakfast and my mother might come in, but it was our moment and it was his thing. So those traditions and I think a lot of that is you know, it's breaking those traditions of those habits as well as you know, all the all the science, but it's that emotive thing and I had to you know, that was that was sad to do to say I won't be able to do this anymore with my father, we'll have to change the change the way we do this, for sure. So, so yeah, I think with my father's family who are big farming family to challenge their whole family business and their heritage. And now they're, they were very good. Sometimes, you know, you get all those questions and sometimes you've we've all heard them as plant based vegans, you know, that protein and this and that. And you feel like okay, you have to keep responding to these things. But that's, that's the nature of coming out. You know what I mean? As a vegan and I like I always say you come out continual every time you go to new dinner party, you have to cut sometimes take those awkward questions and come out with my family. I did what I wanted to do really sensitively and I thought about it a lot. When I was flying home that first time I had to think okay, how do we how do we approach this? How do we do this in a way that's doesn't doesn't reflect you know, not gonna project so the way that my mother now is really on board and she loves the fact Okay, let's do I'm gonna go buy all these plant based milks. And there's so much more out there now, you know, and so all of a sudden, there's an all vendors soy milk in the fridge, and she, you know, she's trying to introduce it, and I can see because, you know, she's trying to introduce it with the rest of the family. My sisters come on board, and they're very proud that they have very little meat or they only do a once a week or whatever, you know, everybody has their story. But

I think, for me, I want it to be just an inspiration and to show I think a lot of vegans can do that. And that's what we can do when we walk into the dinner party with new people is just show Okay, well, there's a, you know, a vegan in the room and we're, we're healthy, we're here, we're alive. All of this is possible. You know, it doesn't have to, you know, meet a centaur or dairy meat or meat products are not somehow unnecessary, or natural, or the way the way it has to be. So it's transformed my family in the last few years and I'm hopeful that it's, it might even be life changing. You know, because there was so much meat on the plate so heavily meat based and sometimes processed meat like sausages that are so carcinogenic and I would see that it would upset me because I, you know, I want them to be healthy and I want them to live long. And they are healthy people you know, I grew up in a very healthy I never saw alcohol, no one smoked, it was just that the only big health concern within my culture, my family because it's you know, it's a very Protestant work ethic, community and family. So there wasn't any other vices. There outdoor living, strong exercise off the land, no alcohol, I honestly didn't see alcohol. I didn't, you know, very seldom people would be smoking. So it was just these diets. And if I could, I thought if I can help shift that through inspiration through information, then that will help not my family definitely the people I care about my near me hopefully have a better life. So that health aspect was the big one and they've taken it on board now a few awkward bumps in the road a lot of awkward questions. But it's just about how you gauge and showing your authentic self and how excited you are, I think and how how good it's been for you can really dampen any of that resistance. So are you know, put it at bay and now now it's it's wonderful, you know, and I see I see my my farming, community changing and alternatives coming in. And I What does upset me now when I go home to Canada, it used to be, you know, these beautiful picturesque fields with cows grazing, the you know, the black and white cows dotted around the field and horses. And it was that picture a storybook children's storybook kind of look to it, you know, which is deceptive, I know. But now you don't see that I go home now in the summers. The fields are empty the the old wooden barns are kind of collapsing, because there's all these preak fabricated sometimes round square enclosures where basically you know, the industrialise factory farming has become the norm the smaller family run farms that I grew up with you know, quite a while ago now 40 years ago, they've been replaced and bought out by bigger farmers who have now these huge scale farmers who don't often know the cows are out for a minimal amount of time but fields are empty you can see them up in the back setback into the road or up on a hill these big fabricated buildings and I hate to think the automatic Judo abuses and and and treatment of the animals in those buildings that might just be walking around all day in the feed in the middle. So that's changed that's changed dramatically where I grew up. And but my family have been have embraced it and I think I'm hopeful that could be a like a you know, a life enhancing and prolonging thing for

Jim Moore 33:09

when did you discover a passion and a talent for writing? When did that come into the mix? Oh,

Todd Sinclair 33:15

well, I don't know if I have one I hope so, I always loved writing.

Jim Moore 33:21

So you definitely do

Todd Sinclair 33:24

it's funny because when I was when I grew up in school, I had undiagnosed dyslexia for a while so I shied away from from that because I I had to really focus more than most people. But I knew I loved reading and I loved I loved you know, the English language and words. So bizarrely, and then when I started travelling, I was writing for some travel publications. So I was there was an Australian magazine, a travel magazine that I wrote a few articles for because I'd be going to all these wonderful places and I'd be exploring you know Sumatra, and places like that and they may not have the budget I got in touch with them to set their you know, local personnel so I was there they said can you write a 500 word piece of this or can you do this so so I had these connections where I was writing and I took it very seriously especially being dyslexic is that I was double checking everything I made I was you know, OCD about this. And and I was writing so all these travel articles as part of my work as a you know, with my travel business and Southeast Asia and and really enjoyed that and loved and love that and then it was well when locked down happened. Obviously my my life kind of just, you know, disappeared pretty much overnight. I remember doing a tour and me and my Burma or Myanmar and they and China's right next door. Obviously the border and a hearing about this COVID And it getting more serious and I had a group of 15 people and not really, you know, within the group at dinner, we might be oh, well, you know, this is happening, but not taking it that seriously still. Yeah. And by the end of that tour, we were all sent home. And my job was done, you know, and I had to kind of go, wow, and I, I, you know, the borders were coming down. So what I do is specialise in these multinational tours where you're literally going, you know, I might have five countries in a month in 30 days. So that was not I realised that, wow, that's gone. My, what I built my career on for the last 1112 years was just kind of suddenly God. So it was a really confusing time. And I came, I came back to London, I didn't even have anywhere to live, my flight was rented out, I shouldn't have been there, you know, I had a friend who disappeared and eventually died, there was a lot happening was quite a dark time. So I found a place and I was living have done in Brighton, actually, in the UK. And I had to kind of you know, the dust settled, and I thought I have to you know, this isn't going to go away. This is going to be a couple of months, this is going to last a while and I might need to rethink my life and, and reinvent myself. And my age. I was thinking wow, that's that's a big one. So I basically thought about all the things I got online and looked at courses. And I took a couple of different courses I first of all, I did a FBA, which is fulfilled by Amazon, if you don't know what that is. And it's basically where they, I was thinking all these amazing things I'd found in Southeast Asia, these incredible, I don't know, computer bags made out of cement bags. And you know, I knew all the manufacturers and markets. So I thought I could sell these on Amazon. That was my first thing. And I learned that I took a course on that. And I thought wow, this is gonna be a lot of fun. This sounds like a lot of you know, a lot of just, you know, the nightmare, the paperwork and all that stuff. And then I thought about writing and I thought I love writing. But could I ever make a go of this? Like, you know, I've just done little articles here and there, written in my journal, really. So I took a publishing course, I self publishing course, because I said if you know, I could show my books to other publishers, but well that's learned the whole from kind of the ground up let's learn the the whole business so I took a great publishing course and and, and that took pretty much the first lockdown if you think there's a succession of there was a there. So the first lockdown, I literally immerse myself on how this works this, this whole world and how you get the books out there, and how you know how you deal with other professionals. So I made I can't do everything, there was a lot of spinning plates. But I needed to learn the basics. And while I was doing that, I was coming up with a concept I thought what, what do I want to write about? And at first I was going to be travel because that's what I I've been doing for most of my career, most of my life. And I thought about different travel and I was studying that niche within say Amazon, the world's biggest bookseller was studying that niche. And looking at some of the places where there was, you know, the,

the competition and how many reviews books had and, and the demand. And I realised let's niche down further. Let's kind of pair my two twin passions that away veganism and travel. And so the first book that came to me was a vegan travel guide. And I looked at it and I started getting excited about it and writing it outline, thinking, Well, that should be in a vegan travel guide, or that's what I've learned on the road, or what did people ask, and it wasn't just a vegan travel guide, especially with COVID I thought COVID is just making everything, all the vegan values, I call them, you know, around sustainability and compassion. And all these things are making, they're highlighting them, you know, and I thought that feeds it to travel as well, you know, and how travel and veganism aren't that far. They're actually quite connected, they make you think differently, they challenge you, they push you outside your comfort zone a little bit, and they make you want to be a better person. I think that was the thing that I thought, wow, the two things that really, I'm passionate about actually are quite connected. And there's not a lot out there. And even people who maybe aren't 100% plant based often go away and say well, I don't want to eat the local meat or I'm scared about that, you know? And so I started, you know, and I was looking out into a world that was kind of in confusion and chaos and it was like, you know, kind of a, an unknown and scary time. And I was isolating alone and locked down alone. So I had no diversions which You know, usually I would be running around and, you know, I'm pretty active person. And I started writing this, do the outline. Because I'd learned to you know, I did the publishing course, I understood the process of how you need to create these books. And I started the outline. And before I could even start the outline, I was writing the book because I was too excited about getting something out. And so yeah, it's I started writing it with the goal that is to Self Publish, and to make this a business. But also, I think, I didn't know if it makes money necessarily, you know, I'd done my research, I'd looked at it. But I knew I had a passion for it, I and I knew that I could convey that onto the page. And I knew I wanted to. So that was the start. That's why I started writing. It was just the circumstances, if you think I would have stayed there, I actually started writing a book on the beach on river ice, two days on the beat con River, going between Thailand or Laos, on a lot of my tours. And you'd be two days at a slow boat on the Miko. And so I started writing the ultimate backpackers guide how to pack the perfect backpack, and I'd write it on my iPhone. So I had that. But I also talked about within that book, what to bring along and what to pack. And a lot of them were things that were as a plant, and I had a section on plant based foods. So I kind of took that are plant based travel, sustainable travel, that's what it was called. And that was part of it as well, I'd already had a little bit of a theory that was the germ of it, or whatever, the seed random. And so anyway, it just became this passion project. And then, you know, the lock downs were extended, or there was another one or another one. And the other books came from it organically. And I almost couldn't stop myself, I had too much to say that. And I realised before the travel guide came out, I needed to have a foundation for this brand. You know, I wanted to create a whole kind of brand. And the foundation needed to be why veganism matters. You know, and this post COVID or COVID world, you know, I think COVID cl here, likely you will have delivered the new normal. So this new, normal wiving doesn't matters. And I thought that's got to be the first book. So I'd already started writing, when I had kind of written and rough draft form, the travel guide, was my first one because it really was my passion. And then I set it aside and I started an outline and getting research and looking at the latest studies and writing this foundational book that really would set you know, I wanted to have the first post pandemic analysis of why veganism matters. So because I thought all the other books out there, there was a lot. So the general vegan niche, I thought, well, I'm competing with some of the big guns here. And there's a lot there. It's a it's a crowded niche, as they say. And, and what I did was say, oh, what this is different, because this is showing, you know, we're entering the world has changed dramatically. You know, this is why veganism matters now, by COVID has highlighted why these issues are so important. And and so then and then I run a nutrition guide and I couldn't stop myself lucky locked down went on for about a year because otherwise there might just be one point.

Jim Moore 43:26

So from from start to finish in a year you'd written to complete books, well,

Todd Sinclair 43:32

three, I then three, like I say, it was kind of a year within a year and a half a year and a couple of months. Because like I said, I started on my travel guide that was just it that just came out of me like that was just like it wrote itself. You know, because like I said, the big car had already started this idea. Like only not long before, maybe only a few months before I was on the Mekong River and you have long days and a lot of thoughtful days there. It's beautiful. And I'd started this book on sustainable travel and packing, planning the perfect backpack. And that when I started writing this book, a some of that came to me this book wrote itself and then the other ones I wanted to write about why veganism matters, but that's the deep dive. And if you think not, necessarily I was advised by my publishing course people don't want to read that they don't want to know the why they want to know the how they want solutions. They want action based and I was writing this deep, you know, an analysis of vegan values and your motive your driving forces of veganism so everybody could have this could find their own motivation and and you know, some of that is uncomfortable reading and that's my story as well growing up in a dairy farm and me confronting my past. So that's that first book why veganism matters the radical taken veganism, but then I thought I need the house as well to complement it. So they're like complimentary books so that I worked with the nutritionist and a The Netherlands, doing Skype, you know, sessions and brainstorming. And we wrote the nutrition guide, the kind of how to nutrition guide with all this stuff about different vitamins and minerals and what you have to be aware of, and with my recipes, so they were kind of companion pieces, these first two books. And so I always say I have the the why, why veganism matters, the how is you know how to incorporate veganism into your life in a healthy way. And then the where, where to go. So I didn't mean it to be that way, all that kind of happened, when I had this, in my echo chamber of lockdown is that one book led to the next. And they all happen, I didn't sit down there with a great master plan to take over write three books, by the end of this looked at it, I've got to, you know, take over the world, that they, they all kind of each kind of led to the other and they fit together. And it was actually kind of really exciting. And then what I, you know, then I became, you know, I worked with an editor, I actually worked with two editors, because I wanted the you know, I wanted the best quality, the best book out there I could have and hopefully one of the best books out there. And that was his own other process, you know, I had to kind of give away a little bit of the ownership and it's, it's my voice and my words, but they would say, tone that down and bring that out, or we got to cut this and you had to not be precious about it. Because I needed that perspective. I wrote these literally, you know, without any feedback alone, sitting at my table every day. And like I said, wake up sometimes with nightmares, bringing up things from the past. It was quite a process. It really was.

Jim Moore 46:45

Yeah, it was I imagine, it might have been actually quite validating, in a way or they like to say, to give up a little bit of ownership, but giving it over to an editor and the editor not saying you know, you're you're way off course here but actually saying no, actually, you just need to bring this up or change this or alter that, as a person who just come to writing as in this kind of way, if you like, you know, locked down one. That was when you were going to write this these start these series of what became three books. I imagine it was quite validating, in a way having having editors look over them and say actually, that you've you've really got something here.

Todd Sinclair 47:21

Yes, it was. I mean, it was challenging at first because it's like handing over you know, your firstborn child. Yeah, go raise it for me. I knew I had to do it. And, and I told them I I had a great editor, Gareth. And Hartfordshire. And he was wonderful. I said, I'm not precious, please do not think that, you know, you need to pander to me. I said, I need these to be I want to compete with the big guns here. I need these to be the best books out there. Yeah. And I said, you know, bring, bring it on. And he did. And that was was great. And I said, and he would come back with huge notes. He said it was a whole, there's three main well formed a driving forces of the first book, you know, the health, the environment, the social impact, and the environment, and the animals. And he would come back with one saying, I need more your voice here, your and that's what I did with the animal welfare section as I made it really scientific. And because it was uncomfortable for it, right? And so I had all the latest science that I said, why, you know, and especially I made its rings through I had everything about the pandemic, I said, you know, 75 to 80% of, you know, world diseases have come from our treatment of animals. That's shocking stuff right there. You know, we should be learning from we know this. It's been kind of the evidence, the science is added and added to avoid future pandemics. So I had this quite a strong chapter, I think, on this with the latest information, especially post COVID Why health was so important to avoid future pandemics. So he said Yep, great, great. It's it's a great scientifically backed article, he said but you're somehow it's very cold at we need your story. And that's when I add it's actually I think it's called farm boy vegan now the whole chapter so he poked the bear and said Ah, and all of a sudden it went okay, this is kind of a story as well you know that. I was brought up thinking this is natural and normal and I used to milk the cows and do these things and promote this. So I made it more real that I came from I came from this industry that is promoting this. And you know, we took farm subsidies and that was part of my life and you know, things that I was trying to expose. were things that I took my family by my business my, my in the past I've taken advantage of So he Yeah, the editor editing processes interesting. And sometimes, sometimes I caught myself getting a little precious. I really liked the way say that. But you're saying it doesn't make sense. Okay, let's turn it on its head. Let's keep some of what what do I actually need? And how can I say it better? And, and he typed it up, I wanted these, you know, I think everything should be focused and have an impact. And if I was ever going off in a tangent, that's the person who's going to tell you so I would say to anybody, you know, if you think you could write a book without outside kind of input in a good editor, I, you know, unless you're the best writer in the world, and even then I think everybody can do with it, I often watch a TV show, and is that I wish they had a better editor. So I see that now I realise how important that is. So as the books went on, for my travel guide, actually had two editors. I had Gareth and I had another editor in America, because I wanted those two different points of view to come in and really make it concise and powerful. And it really is so important. Yeah, to be challenged General.

Jim Moore 51:09

stuff. Yeah, incredible, incredible stuff. And I could imagine, like you say, very difficult when you when it's your, your first book, your first couple of books, I'm fascinated, I've got a copy here. And it's, it really is incredible stuff. What struck me is how well researched you know, as somebody has been in the community for a while, and you know, been vegan five years and run a podcast, and so on and so forth, spoken to a lot of people, hopefully learned quite a lot. But as soon as I opened up the book, I learned something immediately. And just just go, just going through is incredible, how many, how it's dotted with, like you say, personal story, but also lots of lots of actual information, actionable information and information to help you, you know, in your conversations with others, and so on, so forth. It really struck me, what was that process? Like? Because I'm thinking, you know, finding essays from Plutarch and things like that, that, that talk about the veganism back in ancient Greece, you know, through to modern day science and so on. That process must have been incredible. I'm just bowled over in a year and year and a couple of months, you've written three books, we have this quality. Oh, thank

Todd Sinclair 52:28

you. Well, thank you. It's great to get now to actually start getting feedback from now that they're released and to hear what people have to say. But yeah, the research process, I actually quite like research, I guess, as well. And I that first book I wanted it to be based in I want to be contextual, because I think, and that's and I love history, if you think what I did by leading towards that was understanding cultures and history. And reading up on that, and making history somehow exciting, and relatable. And so that's what I wanted to do. When I started that's when I left the travel guide on the side, I said, Okay, that's your passion, but back up, let's get let's get a foundation here. If this is going to be a proper, you know, full kind of brand or stop for people to come for information or, and, and I that process there, I'd seen little bits and little books, I've done a lot of research and other competition, other vegan books, so there might be a little there might even be a little blurb or a little box on it. The history of this and you know, somebody said that or quote from the, an ancient Greek philosopher, but I said, Let's do a deeper dive, because I think the context of that because I think veganism can be seen by many and dismissed as a fad, or a diet. And, and, and you know, oh my goodness, no, like almost a paleo or this or that, or some weird diet. And I'm like, No, you know, it has a proud heritage I and I talked about in the travel guide as well, veganism around the world, all the different cultures that have embraced, you know, plant base through the time. You know, even China, big consumer of meat, you know, once was mostly a plant based country, so to highlight that. And I found that really, really rewarding because I think it's so powerful if we think that we have that context, that we have a history, we have a proud history. And it's not, you know, and I think you know, you can relate to people from the past. You can hear Pluto's essay on animal rights, where we're saying the same thing today. You know, we haven't really moved the needle forward at all and, and to hear those voices echoing past that you can connect with. There's a sense of empowerment there. You can go wow, okay, I'm part of something that's got a proud, a proud heritage or a proud history. You know, this isn't something that was just thought up. I mean, the word you know, Vegan is Vegan Society and vegan wasn't coined to 1944. But they had vegan diets and they had ethical eating as what what I call, you know, through history, even though they didn't have the term yet or the word, they were discussing it, many people were practising it. And you know, there's a real, it's incredibly, even the religions, you know, you pick out little passages often touch on, you know, how we treat animals and replenish the body, spiritually. But that was really important to me. And I love doing that, because I wanted to have that, that sense that we are part of a movement that goes back, you know, to ancient times, and I think that can empower us. And I even that chapter, the book, the history of veganism, reclaim its reclaiming our history is what it is. And I think a lot of social actors, you know, as a social movement, it's good to do that to reclaim their history. And I think that's what that title, that chapter is called reclaiming our history. And it's something I really wanted to do, and I'm even thinking about it, because that's a chapter. And it's a quite an in depth chapter. But it's also I'd love to do a whole book, just on vegan history on veganism, or animal rights, you know, through the, through the time, but like, literally, like every mention of it for someone who wants to do that deep dive and wants who has a real history buff, because it's a really interesting when I was doing history, there's lots of things I left out, and that I got into that it led on to meat corruption in the future of meat. And that's even something just as interesting, isn't it, you know, where we're going, you know, I think the food systems now and break down the system is broken. Like I said, I grew up in a farm and they're, they're good people doing good things. And, and, but they also are part of a system that's broken, or, you know, breaking down now, you know, you look at the ecological collapse, and now we have to face this, the future of meat, so I left the history and our proud heritage and go, Where are we going here, you know, what's happening, you know, with the dairy industry with this, with cell based meat, what they're calling clean meats, you know, just which is an admission anyway, that the meat we have is dirty, which I think is quite interesting, that they have to kind of you know, package it and promote it or branded as this do clean meat.

So that's that I find really interesting as well. And I did a deep dive into that and where the science is going, and the technology, and you know how they can scale it up, and possibly, you know, this might save billions of sentient animals in the future. And I think slowly we'll all without even know it. Go towards a vegan diet. As as these are scaled up, and you know, super realistic plant based meats, which we're getting, you know, beyond burger and impossible and all these things. But increasingly, with milks coming out new mouths would be just like, they'll taste like and froth like in your cappuccino, just like milk. And when they're out there, and the prices are the same people will slowly just convert AI as my hope. And that's kind of that next chapter that we're at that period now, where the farming industry is holding are desperately, you know, they've got, they're fighting a war. You know, the dairy industry, I think is collapsing. And we'll collapse in the next 1015 years. That's my humble prediction. We can live in hope, you know, all these things are happening. But that was exciting. So when I did the history, when I did the research on the history, you couldn't help but to see where it was going and do the research there and go Well, okay. This is where we're at, we're at this unique moment in time that we're all living through. And I think that's really exciting. Because we're part of this, we're living through this in real time, that the whole, it's almost like, you know, another agricultural revolution is happening now, and is going to happen over the next 10 years. It has to, I think, to you know, for our future, but you know, they they have farming subsidies have to change at or what they have to go and we have to refocus that money into technologies for plant based and sustainable living. And, you know, it's going to upset a lot of people it's going to it's going to be transformative for all of us.

Jim Moore 59:14

its fascinating. Put me down as a preorder for that book, where you look back and then look forward, because I absolutely want to read that. I'd

Todd Sinclair 59:26

i'll let you know, i'll come on again.

Jim Moore 59:30

Absolutely. Y'all please do please do. Time's getting away from us. It would be remiss of us not to tell folks where to pick up copies of these incredible books. Where would folks go and find

Todd Sinclair 59:43

the main platform, Well, of course, the world's biggest bookseller is Amazon. So but you can find me on my website, rebel vegan life.com Rebel vegan life.com. We have a bigger life on Instagram On Facebook, all those kinds of platforms. but you can just put up my name on, on Amazon. I think there's several other places you can buy it. I think it's an all the kind of it's on Google Books, it's on all the book platforms. But Todd Sinclair, a rebel vegan, if you put in Rebel vegan, I always say that, you know, some people say, Well, why is it rebellious? So I was like, Well, we are kind of outside the status quo still was still rebelling and I came from that history chapter actually, that I always say that was first rebel vegans who were really challenging the system and we still doing it today. So rebel vegan, if you put it anywhere out there. It should come up with my three, three books. My Travel Guide is my nicest colour colour cover because I'm colorblind, like I said, and this one is the one that I kind of designed myself. So yeah, have a look at and let me know feedback I would love on either my website or directly with a review. Love to hear from people. I'd still when I pick up one of these books, I will make a correction and go no, I want that sentence difference and I'll send it back and change it. So it's a work in progress.

Jim Moore 1:01:09

I love it. It's incredible and wonderful chatting with you today. Yeah, it really, really is fascinating. Thank you so much for your time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai