John Lewis & Keegan Kuhn

Jim Moore 0:05

This is a bloody beacons production radar Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this for a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. It was an absolute honour, and pleasure privilege to be joined by this week's guests. Only last night in fact, this is this episode was recorded probably about 12 hours ago, I was fortunate enough to speak with John Lewis aka badass vegan, and Keegan Kuhn, the CO directors of the new documentary film they're trying to kill us which is out today via they're trying to kill us.com. You can get the film there at 11am. Pacific on November the 11th. If you listen to this afterwards, of course, go ahead, go ahead and download it straight away. Those of you in the in the vegan community for any length of time will know John and Keegan. from their previous work, John is a is an activist of some repute, an incredible individual who has spread the word of veganism for many, many years now, and has been involved in all kinds of creative projects. Keegan Kuhn, the director of Cowspiracy, what the health running for good, you will, you will know as well, so they need no further introduction from me, I would thoroughly recommend everybody goes out and watches this film, at their first opportunity. The first million dollars made by this film are going to go to charity to support the communities, which are highlighted and focused upon within this documentary, so is well worth your time and energy. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me Keegan Kuhn and John Lewis.

Right in the it'd be great to get started with a little bit of your personal journeys into into the world of veganism. I don't mind who goes first, whoever whoever wants to take the reins.

John Lewis 2:48

I'll let Keegan go first on this one.

Keegan Kuhn 2:50

My name is Keegan Kuhn. I'm the co director of the dietary films Cowspiracy what the health running for good and most recently, they're trying to kill us with John Lewis, I was turned on to veganism through the political beacon straightedge hardcore scene. So I grew up in the punk rock hardcore music scene. And there was this incredible band called Earth crisis, still a band actually today who's talking about radical ecology, radical politics and veganism. And they turned me on to this idea that if you really want to do the least harm possible and live a compassionate lifestyle, veganism is the solution. So I became vegan at the age of 12. And been that way ever since.

Jim Moore 3:28

And good to hear health crisis are still going. Yeah. How about you, John?

John Lewis 3:33

My name is John Lewis. I don't have as long a resume as Kiki. And I have one film coming out, which I co directed with Keegan called, they're trying to kill us. My journey began back in 2004. To 2006 era, I went vegetarian at first. And I actually transitioned over to veganism was my mother was diagnosed with colon cancer. And just learning more about like, the causes of those types of cancers that just led down, you know, the rabbit hole, and I was like, wait a minute, so I can do this for my health. But then I start learning more about animal rights and human rights and the ecosystem, the earth and just like all the things involved with this one movement, and that was enough for me, but

Jim Moore 4:18

before we go any further, I definitely want to just thank you both, actually, because you both played a really huge part in my personal vegan journey as well. So just just to say off the off the bat, thank you, thank you so much for all you do. It'd be great to find out where where you both began to collaborate, where did you meet and what led to forming this kind of new creative partnership? I say new so almost five years plus in the making now, so it's not new anymore. But yeah,

John Lewis 4:47

it was a Sesame Street group chat. And I have a new answer for that every interview A date isn't everything. But just you know, I was saying the vegan movement. We had, you know, been around the same circles for quite some time. And we met at an event in New York City. And I came over to the table, nothing he knew. And I was like, I hear the way he's like, oh, man, I love all your stuff. I was like, wait, I was like my page, right? Like you sure about it? Like, like, yeah, and I'm like, okay, so we bonded, I think like, within within a year, probably. We were just at another event, the same event, but a different city. And we just, it was so dead there. Like literally like he came over like, Hey, can you come to my booth, and I want to chat with you about something. And I looked around the room. I was like, Yeah, I think I can go like, there's nobody here at this event. I'm like, nobody's coming. So we went over there. And we just started, like, he started telling me about at that time, what the hell was coming out. And, like, man, I was like, it'd be great to work together. He was like, oh, man, that's what I was gonna talk to you about anyway. And then we were talking about, you know, reaching more people. And I said, I would love to reach, you know, the black and brown community. And he said, Well, how would we do that? And I said, Well, hip hop is the first words that came out of my mouth is that it's the most influential genre ever. And no matter where you're at, no matter what country no matter what city, no matter what planet, it seems like now, like hip hop, I guarantee he's been playing on Mars right now. So we thought that that would be the most influential impact to use that hip hop, backdrop to deliver the message.

Jim Moore 6:39

And that the only day of they're trying, they're trying to kill us had the idea formed that early in the in the relationship between you, as far as the concept of the film and what you were going to explore in it. Yeah, yeah, not

Keegan Kuhn 6:52

exactly like we thought about like to talk about the health disparities that we knew a little bit about that how, you know, African Americans are disproportionately affected by chronic diseases like Type two diabetes, and cancer and heart disease than white Americans or European Americans. And so we knew that would be part of the film, we knew that food access would be a part of the film that, you know, Americans of colour have less access to health promoting foods than European Americans. But we didn't really know least I didn't know the full scope of what this film was going to be until we started getting into and started doing the research and started shooting. And it was, it was really eye opening really shocking.

Jim Moore 7:30

It may be naive of me, ignorant of me, I hadn't made these connections, before hearing about about the film. Was your experience as you started to speak to people and research? That that's quite common, that feeling that actually, we hadn't necessarily seen these connections? Yeah,

John Lewis 7:50

definitely, I would say, whether it be just talking about the film with different people, or having our screeners or testers, a lot of the feedback we got was like, Man, I never made this connection. I never made this connection. I would say most of the people that we actually interviewed for the film, they kind of saw the connection, because they, they've been dealing with this for a long time. But when it came to actually talking to the public, many people had no idea or you'll hear certain times people like I knew it, I just didn't know what the correlation was. Yeah.

Jim Moore 8:27

People hadn't necessarily put their finger on it. But they that they knew something was

John Lewis 8:31

up. They knew something was wrong. Right? And

Jim Moore 8:35

do you think almost that the reason that these these connections haven't been made before in such a kind of complaint compelling and kind of explicit way? Is, is part of that construct? is part of the kind of the the oppression if you like that it needs to be hidden? Oh, yeah.

Keegan Kuhn 8:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a concerted effort to not let people know this and not make the connection. You know, you look at mainstream media in the United States, when they talk about black and brown communities, they talk about police violence, or they talk about like, you know, inner city violence, we'll talk about poverty and crime, things like that. But they'll ignore the fact that vastly more Americans of colour are dying from chronic disease than they then by gun violence. And, and, you know, it's just like, if it's about, you know, really talking about the tragedy that's happening and low income communities in particular, this would be the main focus, but you look at who who funds the mainstream media, it's like, well, where are they getting their advertising dollars, and it's like, and there's you just see this collusion between so many different industries and so many different outlets working together. And so they don't want this information out. They definitely don't want to put together and a platform the way we've done and you know, and then tying in hip hop, which you know, hip hop influences everybody, right? Like it influences the country bumpkin and Texas and as much as it influences, you know, the kid in the Bronx. And so it's this massive platform. It's this massive show. Onra that we can utilise. And so many hip hop artists in the film are plant based or are very health conscious. And so they want to talk about this issue and they utilise their own platform to talk about it. So I think we've put together something that's really compelling, really unique that they really don't want people to see. And it's like they do now people to know this information.

John Lewis 10:23

We the hurdles that we've gone through just to get it to this point have been, is actually so crazy that it's funny is like, from people trying to bankrupt the field to animal ag organisations trying to, you know, basically warn their members about our film to platforms literally telling us to our face, like, hey, you know, this is a social, if this wasn't a social justice film, we can see paying you more for it, like just just flat out and other organic other platforms when the cut out 30 minutes of the film, because they directly told us to our face that while they this is the most impactful documentary they've ever seen, and we fact checked it and we know it's true. We can't We can't allow everything on there because it goes directly out to our advertisers. So yeah, run this thing. They just didn't know that we had another plan.

Jim Moore 11:23

Thinking about this, the folks you got involved, incredible lineup of people, it be good to understand, like, what that process was like, and did you imagine you obviously didn't everyone was was involved in the film? Sort of willingly, etc. But, you know, was there was there kind of a bit of trepidation on their part, you know, in some cases, in terms of getting involved, let's just

John Lewis 11:49

say this black mill works very well, you need favours. For the record, yeah. But, you know, like, I've been very fortunate in, in this space to have worked in at least talked to and collaborated with a lot of the artists, so it helped out to be able to just, you know, Hey, man, it's how we were talking about veganism, you know, and maybe there's been a DM and Instagram. It's like, Hey, I'm working on this amazing project. I'd love to have you involved. And, you know, Keegan's work before this really helped out as well. Like, I mean, I knew quite a few of the people, but saying, hey, this would be like the follow up to what the health, you know, people were like, Oh, well, okay, let's talk, you know. And they knew it wasn't like a, I don't know, my cursing limit on here. But they knew. They knew it wasn't a bullshit film, you know. So they were they were more than going home to do it.

Jim Moore 12:49

Yeah, absolutely. Keegan, from your experience of, you know, making the that some of the previous films you've made, what was the level of resistance for this one? You know, you mentioned in a John mentioned some of the hurdles that you'd had to overcome to get this film off the ground with a much greater than then perhaps you'd experienced in previous films that you'd made?

Keegan Kuhn 13:13

Yeah, there there definitely, there was a unique challenges with making this film, you know, the calibre of celebrity that we have in the film is definitely a tough just scheduling alone, because these people have incredibly busy schedules. They all have managers and gatekeepers and you know, working through their channels can be really challenging. And you'll Cowspiracy what the health really didn't have like a celebrity cast and the way they're trying to kill us does. By but the once you get people in a room, their willingness to talk about these issues and talk about their personal experiences, was phenomenal. I mean, it wasn't like having to pull information out of people, people just willingly shared incredibly personal and impactful stories. And that's I think one of the things that audiences I believe will resonate the most with with this film is that some of their favourite artists are talking about their own childhood, their own experience, their own relationship to food, their own relationship to poverty or racism. And and I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people across all races.

Jim Moore 14:10

And I think across all countries as well, because, you know, from, from my limited understanding, and certainly it's, it's advanced since understanding a little bit about your film and looking into the the issues in the UK. This this is not unique problem to the US may be exacerbated by paid healthcare, but as opposed to the NHS and so on in the UK, but but not a dissimilar issue. I think this is this is this is endemic, you know, across these countries. Definitely. It'd be good to just understand a little bit about how you got the film off the ground in terms of funding so understand this was quite unique methodology to getting to getting this one funded compared to perhaps other projects you've been involved in Yeah, you

Keegan Kuhn 15:00

know, it didn't, we did go a different route with this film. And, you know, it's totally not funded by any sort of broadcast or, you know, major platform or streaming like that. We did a crowdfunding campaign with the film. And that was really successful. And that helped us with the final cost of the film. But we, we knew that we wanted to do this in a, in a unique way. And, and part of that is, is the release and from the, from the very beginning, John and I talked about how we wanted to make sure that this film gave back to the people gave back to the people in the film, get back to the community. And so we knew from the beginning, we wanted to give away a percentage of the profits of the film back to charitable organisations. And in fact, the, the release of the film, we're giving the first million dollars at the film raises to charity, and it's to feed people and to, to literally lift up those who, who need the most.

John Lewis 16:01

That was a big, that was a big factor for us when we first started the project. And then, you know, not only that, we also took it a step further, to where ourselves, we're still donating proceeds from what we make from the film, even after the million dollars. So make sure that like, we help as much as possible.

Jim Moore 16:24

I mean, click clearly it's gonna have a huge just that alone, that fact alone about what your what you're giving back, it's gonna have a huge kind of cultural impact. But what are your hopes for the film itself in terms of its its reach? What kind of conversations are you hoping that it starts and even connect, what's the call to action, if you like that you that you're hoping it inspires,

John Lewis 16:47

I would say, I hope the conversation start over dinner, I want people to, you know, especially with the holiday season coming about, you know, like, where everybody's like sitting over dead animals eating, you know, ingesting this. I'm hoping one family member has seen the film, it's like, you know, what, we shouldn't be doing this, you know, like, and then shares the film with the family. You know, that's the big thing. Because my biggest goal for the film, since day one has been empowerment, I want people to feel empowered, once they watch the film. And to understand that they do have quite a bit of control, even though there are some outlying factors that definitely are battling against us. The in at the end of the day, we control a lot of that, they just don't want us to believe that we control a lot of it.

Keegan Kuhn 17:39

Yeah, yeah. I understand what John said, I want people to, to get inspired to get involved in whatever way they can. And whatever way that means meaningful for them. Some people feel really passionate about political change, and that things can change on a policy level, that's awesome. They should, they should put their energy in that some people feel that it has to be just grassroots. And so maybe that's getting, you know, junk food out of public schools, maybe that's making sure that your local corner store, you know, carries fruits and vegetables, maybe that's creating a farmer's marketing community, whatever it is getting people inspired and empowered, that change is possible.

Jim Moore 18:13

How did the I mean, we touched upon it briefly about schedules and so on with with the number of Contra visitors to the the film, but how did that how's the pandemic impacted things?

John Lewis 18:26

It in a weird way, it kind of helped us. Because when we were working on schedules, we were doing pretty good. We like, we downsize to just me, Keegan and I, you know, at first it was we had like a team of five we were travelling it that only lasted like two trips. And we're like, you know what, we don't need all this. And I think that actually had a positive impact on the actual interviews because they felt more comfortable with just us to in the room. It wasn't like this big, you know, Broadway spectacle that we were doing at first. But when it comes to the actual pandemic, I would say it kind of gave us a chance to kind of catch up we were able to edit the film to a certain point and see the gaps that we were missing or you know, something that was missing something that just could be added wasn't necessarily missing, but we can see that and it also helped out because with that so many people had more I guess screentime time our buzz became more like a became stronger and people start hearing about you know, we talk about police brutality, we talk about the health we talk about viruses that are that are born through animal agriculture. So we were already talking about this and then when it when it when the when the breeze caught it it just carried it for us and then I think that really just spiralled into more people want to know more about The Field

Jim Moore 20:01

thinking about the you know, it's been almost five years I think since you'd since you embarked upon this, this project, looking back to where the where do you think that the kind of vegan community has has moved in terms of its its ability to receive this film and amplify it further? Do you think we've developed to a probably a more intersectional space, if you like, within the vegan community over the last few years? Or is that just my social media bubble reading of things?

John Lewis 20:33

I'll go, I'll go. I think it's gotten better. It could definitely become better. But it's gotten better than it wasn't five, you know, five years ago, I know. Cuz I know, for me personally, I know, when I first got into veganism, I was like, if it's not doing this way, it's horrible. You're not really a vegan, and this and that, you know, like, I had that whole aspect too. And it's like, as you as you grow, you see that everybody has their own journey. And everybody learns, you know, as they go, I think sometimes people want new. I don't wanna say members, because it's not a group like that. But people that are just people, even though some people act like that, like, you don't have your membership card, there's a gold card, a platinum card, depending but I think that, you know, sometimes people want everybody to know everything about everything, when they're coming into it, like some people like, oh, you know what, I do want to get rid of the cruelty, you know, that's in my life. So they go into veganism, but they don't know everything about it. They're just taking the first steps. And I think sometimes we were too critical. And we just want everybody to be the best fucking vegan, ever. From the first time you touch a piece of kale, it's like, it's not like that you grow and you learn as you continue to journey, but it's definitely gotten better.

Keegan Kuhn 21:56

Yeah, yeah, I think that the, the movement in general has been grown astronomically in the last five years, films like The Game Changers have helped tremendously, and pushing this message forward and into a different demographic, you know, and like, the more sports book is macho, like, alpha male, sorta community. And that's held, and then, you know, like the, the uprising of, you know, the previous summers with, you know, Black Lives Matter movement really taking off in the United States and around the world in a major way, people are waking up to social injustice, white Americans, let's say, are waking up to social justice in a way. Yeah, because Americans of colour are already fully awake and aware of what's going on. But yeah, I mean, you saw a lot of a lot of white people being having their eyes open. And a lot of those white people are also having to be vegan. And so they're starting to make the connection. And so I think the the timing of this film is, audiences are primed for it, they're ready to hear this and people are fired up, and rightfully angry about the social inequities that exist, particularly United States. And this film just shows that it's deeper than they ever even imagined.

Jim Moore 23:09

Yeah, 100% not like you say, I think many, many people in many communities are completely aware of some of these, these issues. And it's, it's, it's catch up for the, for the, I think, for that the sort of white vegan community if you like. And I sometimes worry when I look at social media that that the world of veganism was betrayed, portrayed, as, you know, yoga and kale and it and it's and nothing wrong with yoghurt or kale. They're both very great things, but not necessarily inclusive of of the entire spectrum of viewpoints and opinions. And I think you know, more power to for pushing this forward. With less than 24 hours away from from the film being released. Firstly, how does that feel? After so long in the making

John Lewis 24:03

sake, this baby that just wouldn't come out in five years. And the due date, the due date keeps getting pushed back. It's, it's, uh, it's funny, I was telling, I was telling my brother, I was like, we've been working on this so long, I honestly don't know what to do. Once we release it. Like I I have to find a new thing to worry about, like, I don't even know how to say it like what to do after this, which I still know is gonna be a lot of legwork to come along with it as far as like advertising, promotion. You know, things like that, but it's very exciting. It's a it's a nervous, exciting, but it's exciting nonetheless.

Keegan Kuhn 24:47

Yeah, I think John nailed his eye. This is a labour and birthing this this film into the world, John and maybe.

Unknown Speaker 24:55

Yeah, this is all natural. This is all natural. We're doing it ourselves. The analogy keeps running. Yeah, there's no painkillers. There's no C section. This baby's coming into the world. 100% Yeah,

John Lewis 25:12

cuz I know it's not easy, but I think that's the best analogy we can come up with right now.

Jim Moore 25:17

Yeah. 100% 100% it When was it that the film got initially premiere dealt online in it was Tribeca, wasn't it that it was it was first first shown wherever it

John Lewis 25:29

was. June, June 19. Was a June, June. Oh, yeah. It was for Juneteenth. Yeah.

Jim Moore 25:35

And how was that? How was the response? The reaction when it when people first started to see it?

John Lewis 25:41

We have no idea. Honestly, they didn't give us any numbers. They didn't tell us. I think we just recently saw the numbers from it. And it was like 500, people saw it like it wasn't, but it was online. So it wasn't like the screenings that were actually there. Like I went there to try Becca, and to see like the large amount of screenings. And even then, though, there may have been only two to 300. So in retrospect, we actually did really well, because they couldn't really fit a lot of people into the traditional screeners that they used to do. So actually, I think we not I think about it just hit me just now I think we actually made out better by getting more people than what would be in there. But we didn't really get any feedback from it either, though, but nobody cursed us out. So I figured we did. Okay.

Keegan Kuhn 26:31

Try Becca, because COVID did more than half their catalogue online. And they also included 2019, actually 2020 year as well into the film festival. So it was a tonne of films this year. And yeah, we you know, positive feedback, the people who did reach out and they loved it and had their eyes open and couldn't say enough about it. And so we think that we know that the launch on November 11 is going to be big, because it's going to impact people in a major way.

Jim Moore 27:05

Go back to when you were, you know, you were you were filming you were going through the journey, not so much the in the conversations, but in the bits where you were kind of, you know, discovering the community way you grew up going back to that, John, etc. What what was there anything that kind of like surprised you that it you know, either a positive or negative way of what you saw, we kind of shocked at all surprised by anything that you'd come across in your sort of research, and then subsequent filming of the of the of the film

Keegan Kuhn 27:43

looks like John's frozen? So I'll answer that one. Yeah, there were a lot of shocking things. And again, for me being you know, European American, and not coming from the same community that John came from, there was a lot of things that were super eye opening, and one of the major ones was, you know, just access to healthy food. John, you're back. You're delayed. Go ahead.

John Lewis 28:10

Okay, so I will say one of the main things that got me was talking about the grocery stores, and how we find out in a lot of these contracts and leases, they may send a sign a 30 year lease, but they have a stipulation to where no other grocery store can move in or occupy that grocery store once they leave, leaving the community without a grocery store. And that makes them have to travel to their other store just to get food and just a little like evil things like that. It's just very my new but it adds up.

Keegan Kuhn 28:44

access to healthy foods is a major problem in communities of colour in the United States. And it's by design, you know, city councils will allow more liquor stores than they will allow grocery stores and or they'll have more liquor stores and they allow and white neighbourhoods which is just like why why is that? Why is it that they will say no only so many liquor stores and junk convenience stores and fast food places or Latin white communities but that's on unrestricted in black communities. That was really shocking to me. But another major shock to me was the the health disparities particularly for black women when it comes to pregnancy and labour then, you know, black women are about four times more likely to die during childbirth than white women. And it's not because there's something wrong with black women. It's because of the inherent racism built into the US society that permeates through the medical system. And so there's a stat for example, that black babies are more likely to die when cared for by a white doctor than cared for by a black doctor. And it's like but white babies are totally unaffected by the race of the doctor and it's just a sad reality that you know a lot of African Americans know this or and if they don't know what they feel it on some level, but to for me as a European white American to find this stuff out was really hard and really shocking.

Jim Moore 30:03

We obviously talked about your aim being with the film to start kind of a dialogue, to start people thinking about these choices, and actually that there is a lot more, as John said, there's probably a lot more control in decisions, you know, from from folks within these communities. In terms of the power, they have more power than perhaps they think in terms of the choices that they're led to believe they have, in terms of like, legislative change, in terms of thinking about what what we can do in terms of putting applying pressure to politicians, voting in the right way, etc. Do you see that there is any room for for light in our current political system? In terms of, you know, is there an option where we can where we can make change from from you from what you've seen in your perspective? Or Or do you think that this this problem is so deep, that actually what we what we need is kind of almost root and branch system change? Yeah,

Keegan Kuhn 31:07

I think that on a local level, it there's room for change, I think in government has the flexibility to change. And they're not as influenced by major powers like fast food, or though and wire culture or the pharmaceutical industry, on a federal national level in the United States, I have very little faith, because the vast majority of us representatives, and basically all by 10, US representatives receive money from the pharmaceutical industry. So they're not going to do anything that's going to negatively affect the pharmaceutical industry, and what negatively affects the pharmaceutical industry, people being healthy. And so you're not going to encourage people to change their diet, because then people are going to be healthy, and they're not going to need the pharmaceuticals. So I don't see any any hope, in honour on a federal level. But that also is, you know, part of my own worldview and political view and pessimism about societal change. I do think though, that from a grassroots level, we take, we stop supporting these industries, they stop having the money to influence government in the way they are. And so I think that everybody needs to take their power back and not expect it to be top down, but from a grassroots up. And I think that's what we're starting to see is people, this industry is losing its fluting. It's losing its base, because people are saying, You know what, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. And so they're stopping supporting it. And that's the really powerful thing in this film is, we have all these incredible artists and entertainers, who are talking about how they were sick, they had all these illnesses, they had all these problems, and they changed their diet, and all of a sudden, they don't need pills anymore. They don't suffer from, you know, arthritis in the same way, they don't have the same problems that they've always dealt with their entire life. And that's really powerful. It's like, that's really powerful. And that's, that's the proof when people be like, don't want to argue about the science of nutrition and things like that. I'm just like, we'll just talk to somebody who's changed their diet, and see the incredible results they've had. Besides the fact that there's incredible mountain of information that backs up at a plant based diet is the healthiest diet in the world. It's the only diet ever scientifically proven to reverse heart disease, like not reversing heart disease on a paleo diet or a keto diet or any other diet. It's a plant based diet, which says a lot. And I think when people wake up to that they have the information to make informed decisions. That's where we're going to see the real change.

Jim Moore 33:21

I'll maybe come back to John's answer on that on the on that question if we get John back. But I want to continue down that line of line of thought actually, if that's okay, Keegan, just just thinking about veganism, vegan culture. We've seen over the last few years the rise in vegan vegan alternatives, plant based meats, all kinds of different different vegan products made by mainstream companies that we wouldn't necessarily have, you know, in the past associated with, with veganism, you know, you can think chocolate manufacturers, I'm thinking Cadbury's, in the UK and even Nestle have come out with stuff and Burger King and moving mountains, obviously, and these other ones as well. They're, they're in that field, some some new companies, as well as some sort of legacy ones. Do you think, in a sort of perverse way, that the idea that there is some monetization, if you like, going on of veganism? That is an unintended byproduct of these businesses? Because obviously, that I'd imagine they don't really care which way the you know, as long as they are trying to take a bit of the market share of something that they see as popular. Do you think that there's an unintended benefit insofar as people turning to veganism almost like it's a bit of a Trojan horse, you know, by getting a McDonald's that's vegan or, or a Burger King that's vegan? That actually they will start to think a little bit about this product being vegan and what does that mean and so on? Or is that too optimistic view?

Keegan Kuhn 34:58

Yeah, you know, I think that What is these companies don't care about anything but money, right? They don't care if their product kills you, they don't care if you're their product reverses heart disease, they just don't care. They care about money. And so we seen Burger King and major fast food chains starting to sell, you know, plant based meats and you know, doing Yeah, on 100% plant based Burger King. That's just for money. They don't, they don't care. They just see hey, look, veganism is blowing up. This is a place where we can cash in. And so from like a capitalistic standpoint, I'm like, Cool. That makes sense. Like they're just following the market, the market is going that way people are, you know, want to be eat healthier, they want to eat more sustainably, they want to eat more ethically. So they're going to go that route. So they'll those companies will continue to follow that trend as long as we continue to push it. But if the vegan movement dies back, they'll cut those things out. They're not they're not invested in it. So I think that while those are great, I think it's more of just showing that the vegan movement is so massive that even multinational mega corporations are paying attention to it, it's not a fringe thing anymore. And the more accessible it becomes the the bigger the movements going to grow. So I see it as a net positive. But, again, I think it's distilled just comes back to the fact that we as a community, as a grassroot community are pushing this forward. Yeah.

Jim Moore 36:21

Yeah, 100% It'd be, it'd be obviously remiss of us not to tell folks where they could go about getting hold of a hold of the film. And where they can where they can see, with less than 24 hours to go, hopefully, we'll have this odd conversation out when it when it lands. So as soon as people finish listening to this, they can they can go and watch. They're trying to kill us. So where can they go to find that?

Keegan Kuhn 36:45

They can see they're trying to kill us on our website, which is they're trying to kill us.com, you can download the film right from there, you can stream it right from there, it's available, and I think 35 languages subtitled languages. The film is is $20. But we are giving the first million dollars that we raise ourselves to charity. So not only are you could be able to support the film, and get this message and get entertained and get informed, but you're actually giving back to to the community and you're helping move this whole entire movement forward. John Lewis and I, as the filmmakers don't see a dime until a million dollars goes to charity. So this is a totally community driven campaign, we we have decided not to go with the mainstream streaming platforms for a bunch of different reasons. But a big part of that is that it prevented us from doing this, we want to be able to give back. And that's the whole point of this film. So we really encourage people to go, they're trying to kill us.com. That's where you can see the film. And yeah, just spread the word.

Jim Moore 37:50

Amazing. Well, I definitely encourage everyone to I know I'm going to be I'm going to be downloading it as soon as I possibly can. And it's been it's been a long way, but one that's going to be well worth it on. Absolutely, sir. It's just probably needed me to ask with five years in the making of hard blood, sweat and tears to get to this point. But what's next for you, for you, Keegan, in terms of in terms of filmmaking?

Keegan Kuhn 38:14

Yeah, so I've got another film, that it's just finished production called the end of medicine with Alex Lockwood, who's BAFTA winning director, UK director and the film is about zoonotic diseases and pandemics, we actually started making the film in the summer of 2019, long before COVID was making headlines. And it was supposed to be this, this warning that hey, a massive pandemics coming in it's going to come from messing with animals. And then, you know, six months into it. Sure enough, here comes COVID. And it's so knock disease come from messing with animals and Zoonotic diseases, any disease that comes from nonhumans and jumps, the species barrier. Definitely should be out soon. We're still working on distribution for it. It's really powerful film and then I've got five other projects in the works right now that unfortunately, I can't talk about at the moment, but

Jim Moore 39:04

it's a it's a super busy guy. southmost for break, have you Keegan

Keegan Kuhn 39:08

No, you can see the bags under my eyes for

Jim Moore 39:12

for flaky, I think they're incredible. Alex, Alex Lockwood's been on the show before and I've been closely following end of medicine another film that I think is incredibly important and and a timely reminder. I worry a little bit with the with the with the pandemic that that particular angle that particular message has been purposefully kind of put to one side so I think it would be a very important film as well as I'm sure we shoot you know, but I can't wait for that one to go oh, that's all that's left for me to say. Just a huge thank you for all you both do. As I said before, you've had a huge influence on me personally, and I can genuinely show without without both of you for your work this this podcast wouldn't even wouldn't exist. So a huge thank you. And best of luck with the film. I think it's going to make such a huge cultural impact. It really is. So thank you.

Keegan Kuhn 40:12

Thanks so much, man. Thanks for all the work that you're doing. Really appreciate it.

Jim Moore 40:15

See you again. Bye now