Mark Hawthorne

Jim Moore 0:13

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things, plant centric. And this week is no different. We're in December, how very exciting Christmas is upon us for those of you who celebrate. And more excitingly, in my view, anyway, the January's coming up, which means there'll be a wonderful opportunity for us to encourage our friends and family or omnivorous friends and family to take on the Veganuary challenge, and hopefully spark a long term shift to this glorious lifestyle that many of you listening, enjoy. So I'd encourage you to encourage a friend, and to help you in your quest to encourage your omnivorous friends. Or indeed, if you're being curious and listen to this and want to hear some, some different perspectives on it, then many of the kind of very seasoned vegans I have on the show, there's going to be a series of the January episodes coming out in January to coincide. That will feature some folks who, through the month of January in the previous year, went vegan in as a result of taking on just a 30 day challenge that they thought would end on the first of February. But actually all their all their discoveries in that month and the life that they kind of led during that month led them to actually make this switch permanently. So if you have some vegan curious folks, in your in your midst, it's a great companion for them. And even if you don't, and you like what we do here at bloody vegans podcast, I think you'll enjoy it too. They're always really interesting conversations, hearing people's journeys into the world of veganism. And I'm always kind of interested to hear people who went through the Veganuary journey too, because I know there's you know, we've touched upon it in this podcast before, there's been a bit of to and fro as to the various pros and cons of, of having this kind of this event that lots of companies jump on the back of and so on. So it's always interesting to hear, you know, some real positive stories of people who've actually gone through it. And it's, it's meant that changes stuck. So that's coming up in January, usual bit of admin, before we get into the this week's guest, for those who would love to support bloody vegans podcast, and I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't, you can head to your podcast provider of choice. And you can leave a review, hopefully, a really nice one. Those reviews really help in terms of the search ability discoverability of the podcast. So if you'd like to support in a way that will cost you absolutely nothing other than a couple of moments of your time, then you can do that too. Similarly, just tell a friend, that's that's always really helpful, or sharing on social media, thank you so much to the folks who do that sort of thing is really appreciated and doesn't go unnoticed. I can't thank you enough for helping spread the word. And there's a couple of other ways you can support two. One is Patreon. And most people will be familiar with search Patreon. If you're if you're not in your kind of search provider of choice, and you'll find out a little bit about it. It's a way to support creators essentially. And so if you would like to support the podcast through that you can there are a number of different tiers monthly monthly tears, you can you can contribute, and you can get rewards in return for them as well. So that's all very exciting. And if you're an apple podcast subscriber, there's actually a kind of built in version, if you like, into the apple podcast app, that will allow you to subscribe for just 99 pence a month in sterling or the equivalent in your currency. And that will give you access to episodes ahead of time on occasion and also give you access to bonus material and so on and so forth. So episodes that the regular regular folks, regular listeners might not get access to it also. It's all very exciting, isn't it? So you can support a number of ways. Anyway,

thank you for listening to that. Or indeed if you skipped it, I completely understand. This week's guest was Mark Hawthorne, Mark Hawthorne is a writer of some some some repeat. Many of you will already know the name as soon as I've said it, you'll know exactly who Mark Hawthorne is. For those of you who don't. Mark is the author of striking at the roots of Practical Guide to animal activism which I think thoroughly, thoroughly recommend. He's also the author of a vegan ethic, embracing a life of compassion toward all, as well as bleeding hearts, the hidden world of animal suffering. And most recently, the book that we are going to talk about most in this this particular episode is his new book, The Way of the rabbit, which is, if you'd like a kind of a deep dive a study, a love letter to the incredible, the rabbit, the humble rabbit, but humble, but actually with with so much, with so much incredible backstory that I if I'm honest, I went into the conversation with little knowledge of rabbits, and came out with a great deal more, and was absolutely chomping at the bit to get a to get a copy of the book, which I did. And in fact, I bought a few more for friends for Christmas. And Mark is a is a foster parent, if you like of numerous house rabbits. I think he's up to seven at the moment, I was lucky enough to meet one of them at least via via video call when we when we had our chat. And he's worked in a number of animal sanctuaries, and Robert sanctuaries and so on over the course of his of his time as well. So he is a true ally to the animals, a real a real friend of Anwar activists, and is actually a leader in this space. And his writing is phenomenal. So I thoroughly recommend you check out nine years new but where the rapid but also his back catalogue. Anyway, Mark will explain as always, Mark explains the way the rabbit and and his other works far better than I ever could. So let's get on with the conversation. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Mark Hawthorn.

Mark Hawthorne 7:03

Well, I grew up, like most people, eating animals, and not really thinking anything of it. And in 1992, I was very privileged to take some time off and travel around the world for a couple of years. And I was living in Germany with a friend. And I suggested that we go down to Pamplona in Spain and run with the bulls. You know, this annual event takes place in July. And so we took the train down, it was this big adventure, and we did the bull run. And I was probably the only person of the 1000s of people there to feel ashamed afterward. It was just this. I can't really describe it, Jim and convey the feeling. But it was just this deep sense that something was wrong. You know, here, I was not really thinking about other species growing up, but suddenly there was the seed planted in me that there was something wrong in what we were doing. And I wish I could say that I went vegan that day, or even vegetarian, but that didn't happen. But as I said, a seed was planted. And a few months later, I was privileged to live in India for a few months. And I was living in Ladakh, in the Himalayas, with a Buddhist family for a couple of months, and almost everything I ate came from their garden. And so I was essentially vegan. The only exception was they would have buttered tea, which was kind of like a soup. So they did have some cows about but the cows were there for the milk. And they didn't have electricity, they didn't have a refrigerator. And as it got close to winter, they dug a big hole in the garden. And they harvested this, the fruits and vegetables and they buried them in this garden. And they let a cow come into the yard and belong the stalks and stems that remained. And I was about, you know, six or seven feet away from this beautiful brown cow and just watching her eat and enjoying herself. And I just realised that she had as much right as much desire to live as I did. And so I at that point, stopped eating cows. And eventually I came back to United States and stopped eating chickens and fishes and other animals. And it took me another 10 years, but I went vegan finally in September of 2001. So I'm just celebrating my 20th anniversary. And that was a really a shorter process I read died for a new America by John Robbins and that inspired me to invest To get the dairy and egg industries, and I went to a sanctuary for farmed animals, and I met some of these chickens and some of these cows who had been rescued from these industries, and I just decided on that day, I didn't want to support that anymore. So I just I went vegan. And at that point, I wanted to do more to help animals. So I started becoming an activist. Incredible,

Jim Moore 10:26

incredible, from your experience, and you know, travelling around the world coming back to the state. Do you think this, this kind of purposeful, intentional kind of distance created is ultimately the sort of problem if you like that, if more people saw what you'd seen, they would make this they would draw the same conclusions?

Mark Hawthorne 10:48

I think we all get to this point in a different way, you know, we're all on a different path. Certainly mine is unique to me. And it took longer than I was hoping it would. But I do think that we distance ourselves, I do think we have this cognitive dissonance where we decide that, you know, we can hold these two opposing ideas at the same time and feel okay about exploiting animals yet understanding, on the other hand, that these animals feel pain, and they suffer. And I think it's becoming more difficult for people who consume animals to do so and deny the knowledge that's out there, I think it's becoming more evident, you know, we have more documentaries, we have more books, we have, you know, television shows, because the media, the reach of media has become much more prevalent than it was, even 10 years ago. And so I think it's becoming more difficult for consumers to deny the fact that they, they do have some knowledge they do understand, yeah, animals do feel pain. And, and I think they feel a level of guilt. And every because and that's one reason, when you're at a protest, or you're doing some, some form of activism, or even just talking to somebody who eats me, you know, they often push back and make jokes and, and try to justify it in some way. And I think that that's because they understand, then what they're doing is, and I'm reluctant to use the word wrong, but for lack of a better word, they understand that it's wrong to eat animals, and I think they feel guilty about it.

Jim Moore 12:32

Yeah. When you when you moved into the world, you know, the vegan community and so on. And you mentioned you sort of became an activist, what did that initially look like? What sort of steps did you take?

Mark Hawthorne 12:46

Well, that was very difficult for me, because I didn't want to join one of the major groups, I've never really been a joiner, you know, I've really been somebody who likes to kind of go out on his own and figure things out. And I didn't want to volunteer for a big organisation. So at the time, there wasn't there weren't many resources out there. To become an activist, you either joined a big group, or you asked a lot of questions, which is what I did. So I would ask everybody I knew about activism, and I would email some of the groups and some people they were kind enough to respond with advice. And it was it was a very slow process. But one of the things I did was I started volunteering at a sanctuary for farmed animals. And that introduced me to more activists, so that was a big help. And I also started volunteering for a sanctuary for rabbits, a shelter here in the Bay Area called seva bunny. And I learned a lot about rabbits and I love the fact that they're vegan. So that was a it was an easy fit for me, and then started fostering rabbits. And from there I just got more and more involved and started doing more writing and writing for magazines like Satya and veggie news. And that introduced me to even more activist so it sort of built from there and then I started working on books. So it was a progression for me slow but it was very rewarding.

Jim Moore 14:17

Let's talk about that a second you your journey into into writing did that was that sort of almost a reaction to your to veganism it felt like an outlet for you? Or did it come much before and you kind of then adapted the subject matter as as you became vegan?

Mark Hawthorne 14:33

Yeah, the ladder. I had always been a writer. I had been writing for magazines for many years. And I was actually when I got back from India, I started writing for a magazine called Hinduism today, and they asked me to write an article that would be their cover story about the history of vegetarianism. And that was actually what inspired me to read John Robbins because I was doing research This article, and the more I read, the more I realised that I need to be vegan. And the more I realised that I needed to be vegan, the more I realised I needed to be writing about that. So I was always writing about social justice issues, I had been doing some volunteer work for Tibetan Justice Society group in the Bay Area, helping Tibetan refugees. I had met Tibetan refugees when I was living in northern India. So that was a good fit for me, too. It was a it was a topic I felt passionate about. But as I decided that I wanted to do more writing for animals, I became vegan. And I started doing writing for Satya magazine, which is unfortunately, no longer around. But it's, it's a was a great publication for activists and for people who were kind of breaking into writing in that, in that world, because they were very forgiving about what I wrote, they, they were happy to read anything that I proposed. They regret it great editors. So I learned a lot. And then from there, you know, had some experience and I was able to start writing for veg news. And after having some articles under my belt, a publisher contacted me and asked me if I would be interested in writing a book for them about animal rights. And this is John Hunt publishing in England. And they have a an imprint called change makers, and they had not done an animal rights book at all. And I and I, at the time, I said, No, I, I don't really know what I could contribute to the literature that was already out there. But they said, well think about it. And, you know, get back to us if you have any ideas. And then I remembered how difficult it was for me in the beginning to get started as an activist. And so I thought, Well, why not write a book that consolidates a lot of these ideas, a lot of these best practices that I learned from other activists, so I kind of went back and interviewed about 120 or so activists around the world and got their recommendations. So it's really their voice. In the book, more than mine, I have a few of my own ideas, a few of the things that I learned, but mostly it's these other activists, these, you know, really remarkable people I admired. And, and that became striking at the roots, which is the the first book this is actually it's actually an attempt Anniversary Edition now. And it was just a very, very good learning tool for me. And it's been great to hear from activists around the world telling me how they're using it, and how important it's been for them. And that's been very rewarding for me.

Jim Moore 17:54

I can imagine that interviewing 120 activists in the process of writing this book, your your view of the world of activism, animal rights, etc, probably changed quite fundamentally, would that be fair to say, you know, did it did it introduce any kind of new ideas or different perspectives that perhaps in your own personal journey prior to that you hadn't necessarily come across? Yeah, I

Mark Hawthorne 18:21

think the, the big thing for me that came out of that, in terms of a learning experience was that there's really nothing that we should ignore, there's no tactic that we should ignore, there's no strategy that we should be putting down, that, you know, we should be open to all ways of getting our message out there. And I think probably at the time, I was a lot less radical. You know, I was probably one of these people who thought, you know, don't get arrested. Don't Don't make waves. Don't just be nice. And as I was interviewing activists, and hearing their stories, I realised that they were very effective in doing some things that would be considered illegal. And so I started, I tried them out, you know, I did open rescue, you know, but, you know, I literally broke into factory farms and rescued animals, you know, something that I never would have considered before. I admired people who did that, but I didn't think that was for me. So it really was a learning experience. For me, it really taught me that we have a lot of tools in the toolbox, so to speak, and we shouldn't ignore any of them.

Jim Moore 19:36

But I'd love to get your perspective on over the 20 years of being being vegan 10 years since publishing your first book solely, you know, centred around activism, and, you know, direct action, different methods, and thinking about the way where the vegan community is now, obviously, there's over 6 billion smartphones in the world, that there's all kinds of social media, in people's hands in people's pockets, much better ways to spread messages in many ways. Arguably, on the flip side, perhaps a bit more sanitization of vegan messages. You could argue it depending on which way you're where you're kind of frequenting online. What What's your view of kind of the vegan community now activism as it stands, and and that kind of, you know, what many and varied approach to activism tactics? If you like?

Mark Hawthorne 20:34

Jim, I'm not sure I have a good answer for that. On the one hand, it's been encouraging to see young people getting more involved, and to see their passion, and to see how it's sort of pushing that peanut forward, you know, how we're slowly making progress in some areas. And it's also been very exciting to see the impact of documentaries, which if we didn't have, if there hadn't been social media, I don't know that we would have had this success, you know, Blackfish came out in 2013. And it just made such a huge difference for marine mammals in captivity, such that it's now illegal in many air in many countries, to keep these animals in captivity to breed them in captivity, even here in the United States. So that's been very, very rewarding. But at the same time, it's been frustrating, because there's so many things that we were so close to having achieved a victory, like the fur industry. A few years ago, we were so close. And somehow the fur industry picked up momentum. Again, that's changed. I'm very happy in the last, even the last few months, that's really changed. And I really think we're seeing the death knell for the fur industry. And then the other one has been animal testing. You know, this is one of the most difficult things for us to achieve a victory and, and yet, other countries are banning animal testing. But in the United States, we haven't banned it. And so that's been very sad to see. And, and when I say animal testing, you know what I'm talking about several levels. I'm not just talking about cosmetics testing, I'm talking about animals used in labs for medical research, I'm talking about animals being used in medical school. For for doctors and veterinarians. I'm talking about animals being used in grammar school for dissection, probably frogs being dissected as the one that most people are familiar with. I'm talking about animals being used in the military, in experiments. So there's all these levels, and it's just it's so heartbreaking to read, and to see these examples of how these animals are used and, and know that all that we're so far away, in many respects from getting these things banned. So it's so I think it's a mixed bag. Jim, it's again, I don't know that my answer is very clear. But I think there's there's there's definitely been some positive things, there's been some reasons to celebrate. And then there's these other things that are quite frustrating, because you think that we'd be, we'd be actively pursuing, for example, animal testing, and there's not a lot of groups who are doing Yeah.

Jim Moore 23:37

What do you think needs to shift in that space? Do you think there is a, you know, when we talk about animal testing, specifically that that, do you think there's a sense in the mainstream? You know, it's almost there's there's too much of a sense in the mainstream kind of non vegan world, if you like that it is this necessary evil, you know, I think about like COVID, vaccines and so on. And perhaps, almost that that idea that animal testing is absolutely necessary becoming even more entrenched in people's minds. Your your perspective on that would be would be quite, quite interesting. I think.

Mark Hawthorne 24:10

Well, my sense, and I don't know that this is correct, but my sense is that it's going to take substantial advances in technology. We have to reach the point where we have adequate substitutes that don't use animals, whether it's synthetic skin, or, you know, lab on a chip or synthetic organs, you know, things that medical researchers especially can use in place of animals. So, and that's been we've seen some advances in that. So there is some hope there, but I think that's going to be the key as opposed to activism. You know, I get that. As much as I'd love to say, if we can get activists rallied behind this issue, we can win it. I think it's really going to come down to having adequate, humane options that researchers can use and feel confident in that they can say, Yeah, this is, this is going to, this is going to give us the answers that we need. And we don't have to use animals.

Jim Moore 25:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As, as kind of activists today thinking 2021 And you know, thinking about cop 26 is on in the UK right now in Glasgow, obviously, climate change being being front and centre of many of our news cycles right now. We can talk about MBR. And the kind of the Beagle testing that's, that's going on in in the UK to, there's these different kind of fronts, where animal activism is gonna place a story to tell, etc. Do you think there is a particular avenue that you've seen to be more effective in so far as persuading the the mainstream, wider society, if you like his you know, whether it be climate change, animal testing, you know, is there a particular one? Or do you think actually, the tactics need to be many and varied and we need to target every aspect,

Mark Hawthorne 26:15

I think they need to be many and varied, but from my experience, and again, I don't know that this is going to be true for everybody, but, or that everybody will agree. But from my experience, the the tactic that seems to hit home, is telling stories, sharing with people, you know, actual animals, you know, the image of the beagles being rescued. In Italy, I don't it was four or five years ago, but they were literally being carried over lifted over a barbed wire fence from an animal lab in Italy. And you could see these animals faces, you know, they were not just a statistic, they weren't just a number anymore. And I think that that image, and that story, really helped people understand what was going on. And I think that helped push the peanut a little bit further again. But I just I really believe in the importance of telling stories and letting people understand what these animals experience. And if you can use a specific example. And if you have a video that's not terribly graphic, or an image, you can show that's not terribly graphic. I'm not, I'm not a proponent for really graphic images, although they do have their place and some people can tolerate them. I just don't, I don't like them personally, so I don't use them. And I tell activists, you know, don't feel you have to watch these horrible documentaries, because I worry about burnout, etc. But anyway, yeah, back to the question. I really think telling stories, and helping people understand. We're really talking about individual animals here is a very effective tool.

Jim Moore 27:54

Do you think that, you know, you mentioned a couple of things that sort of struck a bit of a chord with me, and made me think about, you know, when you talk about storytelling, made me think about other movements, you know, thinking about intersectionality within the vegan community? Do you think that one of the things that I've seen, I'll rephrase one of the things that I've seen within sort of social media of quote, unquote, vegan community is that there's a push and pull between the kind of single issue vegan who thinks that they shouldn't be involved in any other in any other activism about any other subject. And then those are probably sit more on this side of the fence, who think actually, kind of all oppressions are interlinked, and we are stronger together. Do you think that we that there is a tipping of the scale one way or the other in terms of the vegan community or in over the 20 years that you've seen things? Or is it just just as much division as there was at the beginning, and that's just the nature of any group.

Mark Hawthorne 29:00

I think we're seeing more vegans and more activists becoming aligned with what they're calling intersectionality. Intersectionality is a very specific term created by Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw to address an intersection of, of racism and sexism. So I'm reluctant to use that term and apply it to animal activism. But I know it's used quite a bit. And I think I understand what activists are saying when they when they use it, they're, you know, they're really talking about not being siloed as you put it, yeah. After all, excuse me. So, I think that we're seeing more activists agreeing with that, you know, we're, we're trying to not be so siloed and we're not and we're trying to understand that approach. oppression. So whether it's sexism or racism, or speciesism, or ableism, or classism, or anything else, they all have their roots in oppression. They're all these marginalised communities, and we're not going to have liberation for animals until we have liberation for everybody. That's a very difficult concept for, for activists to get, because they tend to get very especially new activists, they tend to get very passionate about just animals, you know, they tend to focus on just animals, and not understand that, you know, there's a whole history here, there's a whole reason in a patriarchy and everything else, there's a whole reason why we're exploiting animals and why it's acceptable. And I say that not including us or your listeners. But, you know, that's why that the world at large considers acceptable. So there's a big, big issue here. It's very complicated. And I'm not an expert, by any means. And I even wrote a book. One of my other books of vegan ethic is really about taking a holistic approach to veganism into animal rights and understanding that all these oppressions are connected. So in answer to your question, you know, I think we are seeing a movement toward that toward accepting it. And that's very, that's very, it gives me a lot of hope. You know, that's very encouraging. But, you know, there's still a lot of people out there who just want to work on one thing, they just want to work on one issue. And that's okay. For them. If that keeps you in the movement that keeps you from getting burned out, it's okay. Provided you understand that there are more issues out there that there are there are larger issues to discuss.

Jim Moore 31:51

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think like you say it's, it's complex and nuanced. And, and I think that's where my concern lies sometimes is that is some of the social media platforms, are they capable of delivering? nuance, subtlety and argument? And I sometimes think it's one of there's, there's tonnes of benefits, but one of the potential pitfalls is, you know, we don't have these nuanced dialogues quite as much maybe as we would have done it, admittedly, there would have been smaller, but they would have been face to face and with groups and over the course of time, you know,

Mark Hawthorne 32:28

they're nothing beats face to face activism as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you know, I mentioned Blackfish has a huge impact, obviously reached millions of people. And and so I don't discount that, but one on one activism is really sell effective, and, and hard to be. And that's where you get the context. Right. That's where you get the new one.

Jim Moore 32:49

Yeah. 100%. Let's turn to the latest book, shall we the way the way, let's, let's talk about the you know, what inspired it what let's talk about the journey of that put me at ease

Mark Hawthorne 33:02

with rabbit. As I mentioned, I was volunteering for a group out here called seva bunny. And I was failing at every single attempt to foster meaning that I would adopt every rabbit I just kept falling in love with them. They're just these, these wonderful little vegan beings. And I just always had an affinity for rabbits as a species, even as a child. And as I was reading these other books, and people would say, you should really write a book about rabbits. And I thought, well, I don't want to write a book about rabbits, because there's all these horrible stories to tell, you know, they're exploited I, I often say they're probably the most exploited animal in terms of all the types of exploitation they're subjected to, of any other species, you know, there used for everything. And for years, I would, I would just think, Well, I'm not gonna write a book about rabbits. And then one day, I thought, Well, why not just write a book that celebrates them doesn't have to be that big, you know, it's only 225 pages or so. But just focus on their role in literature and, and history, and popular culture and as household companions. And just have a fun book, have a cosy read for people. And so, writing this book was a catharsis for me. For two years, I just spoke to biologists and palaeontologists, and historians and scholars from all over the world, asking them about what makes rabbits special, and from their point of view, and it also includes my own interpretations, my own experience with rabbits. And it's just a fun book. And so for two years, I had the best time and didn't have to worry about oh, today I'm going to write this ghastly passage that people are going to cringe when they read it. It's all just fun. So it was a great great It's great pleasure.

Jim Moore 35:03

I think it Rajiv plays it, as you mentioned that that plays a really important role for us in the vegan community. People are involved directly in activism, you talk about burnout earlier, you know, that actually just just celebrating, you know, who we're trying to save, who we're talking about, who's at the centre of our activism sometimes is, is a is a welcome pressure release. So I'm kind of grateful to

Mark Hawthorne 35:31

you. Oh, thank you. And I'm, I'm really amazed by how many people who work in rabbit rescue or vegan, I mean, you think it'd be natural if you rescue animals that you'd be? And I didn't think that that would be the case so much, but I'm hearing from people who run sanctuaries in England and Canada and, and Australia and the United States, and they enjoy the book, and they happen to be vegan as well. And I think that's just wonderful.

Jim Moore 36:02

Absolutely, absolutely. We're in the process of research. Obviously, you were you were kind of very well versed in the world of rabbits before. But you know, when when you research the book, was there anything, you know, really surprising that kind of jumped out, you know, perhaps when you're looking at the history of rabbit,

Mark Hawthorne 36:20

the thing that jumps out at me, excuse me about the history of rabbits that I found so surprising is that, you know, we have wild rabbits, and we have domesticated rabbits. And they both have their own populations in the world. But every single domesticated rabbit today comes from the European rabbit. The autologous Cuniculus is the Latin name from the Iberian Peninsula, in Europe, that all every every single rabbit who is in a home today, or unfortunately, in a lab today, or in a sanctuary, they came from this one species, this one particular species, I find that amazing. And the other things that I learned that I found surprising, were more biological. For example, rabbits don't really hop. Even though classically you think of rabbits, as being hopping animals, they actually have what biologists call a half bound gate, where they're their back limbs, their back legs, work in tandem, and their front paws lands separately. So I just and their teeth continue to grow, you know, even, which is one reason that they need to be constantly eating hay as domesticated rabbits are grass. In the wild, they're constantly growing so that their ears can turn, they can rotate 270 degrees, and they can monitor two sounds at the same time, and that they're eavesdropping on conversations between birds or between squirrels to know if it's safe for them to come out. I mean, there's just absolutely fascinating animals I've just, and you know, one of the reasons that I call it the affectionate history of nature's most surprising species is because of all these things, I learned that even as a rabbit lover for many years, I had no idea

Jim Moore 38:21

that after explore a bit further that that piece about the all domesticate these are all domesticated rabbits come from the same community, how did without giving away too much about the book? Obviously, we encourage people to pick up a coffee. But how did that come about?

Mark Hawthorne 38:38

I think it started with the Romans, and the Romans, loved autologous Cuniculus, you know, the European rabbit, the specific species that came out of when I say the Iberian Peninsula, it's Spain and Portugal is that area. They loved this rabbit. Unfortunately, they were exploiting this rabbit. However, there are some examples, early examples of these rabbits being domesticated as household or not, maybe not household companions, but certainly as, as companion animals like pets. And the Romans carried this European rabbit everywhere, you know, everywhere they went, they brought this rabbit with them. And eventually, autologous Guinea has ended up on every continent except Antarctica. And from there, people would, you know, through their, through breeding, you know, figuring out which character traits which characteristics they wanted to have for the rabbit, whether it was floppy ears, or a white coat, or a large body or whatever. They over centuries managed to breed them. Now, I'm not a proponent of breeding. I'm not saying that this is great that they did that. I'm just saying that it's Surprising and it's rather amazing. And it was all from this one species autologous Cuniculus.

Jim Moore 40:08

That's pretty incredible. Is it is it's very, yeah. It's really one of the like, lights a genuine, a fascinating history, I would have never, never suspected that, you know, some an animal. So you know, so, so ubiquitous waistline. Is it all comes from this one species? Just yeah, just amazing.

Mark Hawthorne 40:31

Yeah. And I think it has to do with the, that specific species had the perfect combination of attitude, or in whatever sense, whatever internal sense made them become friendly toward humans allowed them to trust humans, unfortunately, in many respects, but, you know, kind of like dogs, you know, like the first dogs were wild wolves. And they would approach humans. I mean, we don't exactly know what happened. There's a lot of theories. But at some point, there was this connection between humans and wolves, and we were able to breed them into the dogs we know today. And they're all you know, every domesticated dog is from a wolf.

Jim Moore 41:21

Yeah, crazy, crazy. When you think, you know, the, the sort of intervention of humans really to when you think about dog species is just, it is mind blowing every time you think about that, that they come from come from all right, yeah, I would have never suspected the same to be true rabbit. You know, thinking about that. It's sort of, you know, rabbits in, in kind of, you know, in folklore, if you like, and there's a really interesting passage in the book about about Easter and the role that kind of the symbolism of rabbits have played in that. I'd love to hear a little bit about that from you.

Mark Hawthorne 41:55

Well, yeah, there, there are a number of theories about how a rabbit came to be associated with Easter. One has to do with spring, goddess named youngster who possibly had a cult following in early Britain, and whose sacred animal was supposedly a rabbit or a hare. The most reliable evidence we have for the existence of this goddess and, and the worship around her is from a Benedictine monk named bead, B, D, who wrote about her in the eighth century. But he makes no mention of any rabbits, or hares, or any other animals. And, in fact, a more reliable connection between yo stir and laga marks occurs in the late 19th century where we find a legend in which the goddess turns a bird into a hare, and thus explaining how this little mammal might lay eggs. And now there's another theory that I think makes more sense and that comes out of England, and it's connected with English countryside. And it's home to both hairs and these birds called lapwings and lapwings make their nests in a shallow depression in the soil and hares do this to Harris don't build borrows, like, rabbits do they just, they have these little depressions. And it's not uncommon, excuse me for the two species to borrow each other's nests. So you know, I can imagine some people walking along in the countryside and they come upon what was once a hair, depression, a hair nest. It's now a lapwing nest, and it has eggs, but they might see a hair run by and then they come in, they find this, this nest of eggs, and they make this connection that oh, here is hairs lay eggs. So you know, there's this whole school of of of investigation into how rabbits became associated with Easter. But these are just a couple of, of the theories and, you know, they're they're really fascinating.

Jim Moore 44:08

O'Brien says, well, there was this notion of an Easter Fox. But yeah,

Mark Hawthorne 44:15

there was before the Easter Bunny, there was an Easter Fox and the theory about that, is that because foxes have this habit of stealing and burying eggs that right, maybe that became maybe that animal became associated with the Easter egg hunt. Where, you know, let's try to find the eggs that the fox buried. I say yeah,

Jim Moore 44:39

again, that. No, I did. I'd never heard of an Easter Fox until Do you bench

Mark Hawthorne 44:45

I have not either until I started researching the book.

Jim Moore 44:50

I can I can only imagine that the things you must have found out through throughout the process of

Mark Hawthorne 44:56

Yes, I said I had such a great time. Every day it was a no new revelation for me and so much fun.

Jim Moore 45:02

Yeah, definitely, definitely think there's a passage in the book towards towards the end where you talk about ways that the US has readers can help can help rabbits. It'd be good to just cover off a couple of those just so that just people get the kind of idea. And obviously, we'll pick these up in it. I encourage people to pick these up in the book, but we get stuck by others.

Mark Hawthorne 45:25

Yeah, I'll just I'll grab the book here and, and I'll read from them. And the first is, treat wild rabbits with kindness. If your yard or garden is overrun with rabbits, eating your flowers and vegetables, seek humane solutions. And it goes on to give some examples. Number two, watch out for nests. Not all rabbits burrow safely underground. So before mowing your lawn, carefully check the grass and watch for patches of brown dead grass, which may indicate a camouflage nest near the surface and, you know, baby rabbits, they they grew up fast, so they'll probably be gone pretty quickly. Another important one is volunteer at your local shelter or rabbit rescue organisation, there's plenty to do socialising rabbits to make them more adoptable. And again, yeah, just adopt don't shop. And never. The last one I'll give is is really important too. And that is never give rabbits as an Easter present. Well, meaning parents every year will go out and they'll acquire one or two rabbits and we'll bring them home for their kids. Before they understand what it takes to take care of a rabbit. You know, rabbits live 10 years or more. They're not easy pets. They're not great starter pets, for example, they don't tell you when they're sick, like a dog or a cat would. So we really need to educate ourselves before we decide we want to bring around at home as a companion. But what often happens is that these parents don't do that. And they end up after a few weeks or a couple of months, they end up adopting, excuse me abandoning them at a shelter or dumping them in the wild. They'll dump them in in a park. And in fact, my wife and I were walking, we live in an urban area. And we were walking back in June, on a Sunday morning, and we saw two rabbits just on the corner on the street corner nibbling grass. And I knew right away that these rabbits did not belong there. And we managed to scoop them up and bring them home and care for them. And I'm almost positive they were abandoned. Easter easter bunnies. So yeah, there's just I thank you for bringing that up. Jim, there's a there's a section in the book that really talks about how important it is that we take care of these wild and domesticated rabbits.

Jim Moore 47:54

Yes, so important. Picking up on that last point, you know, I'm reminded of my childhood in the UK is much the same in the States. But rabbits often considered that the starter pet for young children often given in very small hutches not considering you know, the kind of the space they're given and so on. And, you know, I think back to those times, when either, you know, my, my parents had bought me a rabbit, sort of five or six years old, and it being in this small Hutch and so on, and I sort of thing, you know, now, I wouldn't I wouldn't do the same with my with my, with my little one. Yeah,

Mark Hawthorne 48:36

yeah, there was a movement in the 19th century in England, that I talked about in the book, that rabbits were great for kids, especially for boys, because having the responsibility of taking care of a rabbit would keep them out of trouble, keep the boys out of trouble. And it was good for girls to have kind of a surrogate baby, you know, so they'd learn how to care for for someone. So that yeah, that whole movement about being started great starter pets, I think started in the 19th century and it's been difficult to disabuse people of that ever since.

Jim Moore 49:12

Yeah, well, I think I think a good start for people on what to pick up your your book and get get educated in in the way of the rabbit. Absolutely. Just before we get going, though, before we we send folks off, it would be absolutely remiss of us not to tell people where to go about getting a copy because I've picked up one myself. It is genuinely fantastic. Like you say a real. I imagined it was a joy to write. It's a joy to read. And it does feel like this really welcome kind of pressure valve release, if you like from from our day to day kind of thoughts of activism and the plight of animals. So I thank you again for it. But where would folks go about picking one up?

Mark Hawthorne 49:57

Thanks, Jim. Well, you can Get it anywhere, anywhere that sells books, you can ask your independent, your local independent bookstore, to have it, you can order it online. All the usual places. People asked me if there's a specific way to order it that benefits me, which is kind but I, I ended up donating quite a bit of what I earned from these books, which isn't a lot anyway, to animal organisations. So the best thing you can really do is just support your local independent bookstore, I think and if you order it online, you can go to my website, Mark Hawthorne comm and click on the link for the book. And I have several places on there. I don't make any, any money from these links. They're just places that I know, places like Amazon book depository, and other places that sell it. So but it's available everywhere, fortunately. So

Jim Moore 51:00

great stuff. And definitely I'd recommend folks picking up a copy of striking routes as well. 10 years on and still just as relevant. So you definitely pick up a copy in your local bookstore wash you there too. Thank you. All it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you again, for the way the rabbit and all the amazing work that you that you do within this sort of vegan activism space. It's so well needed. And your voice is one that is well respected. And we're all very grateful for so I thank you.

Mark Hawthorne 51:33

Well, thank you, Jim, and thanks for all you do. And again, congratulations on the success of your podcast. It's just why it's wonderful that you're doing what you're doing and helping people who are new to activism or people like me who think they know it all. Just kidding.

Jim Moore 51:51

Appreciate it, Mark. Thanks for your time.

Mark Hawthorne 51:52

Thanks, Jim.