Nikki Cowell

Jim Moore 0:01

content warning. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to give a trigger warning to people who may have been affected by severe mental health conditions in cluding, up to suicide, and addiction. These themes are referenced within the podcast within the discussion. So I wanted to give folks enough time to opt out of listening to this episode if they do not feel comfortable with a discussion centred around those themes.

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans, you're very welcome to it. Each week, I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way, a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. Before we get into the actual conversation, a couple of bits of admin in the usual fashion. Hopefully, you have all heard the content warning at the start of the episode. If you haven't, go back and listen to that, before we get into the episode, I just don't want anybody to go into the conversation unaware of some of the subjects that we discuss. So please do listen to that content morning. But usual pieces of admin before we get into that discussion, first of all on the 27th of November, this coming November, the green gazelles the world's first vegan rugby team fully vegan rugby team. We will be playing a game against Rosslyn park in the southwest of London at Rosslyn Park Stadium. 15 pounds of ticket tickets available from Green gazelles rugby club.com, that's green gazelles rugby club.com, you will be treated to a 15th rugby game between the green gazelles and Rosslyn Park, as well as all kinds of wonderful vegan fare on offer from various vegan stallholders and businesses. And also vegan alcohol and bits and pieces. The usual the usual way of fair you'd expect a such a glorious event. So that is on offer. For those of you who would like to support the podcast, there are a few ways to do that. You can do that through Apple podcasts. If you are an apple podcast user, there is a new subscription function in Apple podcasts that allows you for just a token fee of 99 pence a month to support the podcast and gain early access to the episodes. You essentially get them a week ahead. They'll also be some exclusive content that comes down the down the track over the coming weeks and months which is also very exciting. And like I say every week, ultimately, he helping keep the lights on I bloody vegans towers, other BS business, if you would like to support her through Patreon, you can do there as well. There's all kinds of things on offer on Patreon, from merchandise and exclusive content as well through to shoutouts on the podcast and mentions in the show notes and all kinds of wonderful things. So if you are that way inclined and we'd like to support the bloody vegans podcast, then you can do in those various ways. Please do is very, very much appreciated and a huge, huge thank you to those of you who do already. So this episode, I'm going to be chatting with Nicky Cowell. Often I say the word incredible I'm aware of probably say it too much. That word is not is not befitting enough of Nikki She is truly an awe inspiring individual who has been through some incredibly tragic events in her in her life and as battled heroic heroically throughout them and is truly an inspiration to us all. As you can tell. It's really difficult to find words to sum up somebody like this, the conversation I think, and listening to Nicky firsthand, I think source has it also, I'd recommend doing that shortly. For those who who may not have heard of Nikki before Nikki is a rugby player for sale rugby club. She is also a green gazelles rugby player as well which is very exciting. It's an absolute honour to have her on the roster. She's also a personal trainer, and has recently competed as a bodybuilder in the PCA bikini tall Midlands tournament that happened a week or so ago. And I'm delighted to say Nikki finished second in that has got through to the next the next stages of that tournament. So incredibly exciting. Like I say, Nikki is truly or inspiring has been through an awful lot. And although, you know, like she would say she'd be the first one to say, you know, he's still still going through those things and still working through some very tragic events. She really is an inspiration to all in how she's sort of tackled these things. So I think it's safe to say Nikki will do a far better job of telling her story than I. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Nicky cow. We've done

so, Nikki, it'd be awesome to get started with a little bit of your personal journey into the world of veganism, what kind of brought you to it.

Nikki Cowell 6:02

So I actually, it's, it's mad that I even I think went vegan, because I used to be typically that kind of person who had, you know, kind of thought a bit of a stereotype about vegetarians and vegans. And I used to be, you know, when I trained, I used to be like, No, you have to have meat with everything and where to get your protein from and, you know, I used to not understand it. And then I had a proper detachment from the meat you buy in supermarkets and animals. I just didn't, I thought about it, but I didn't really associate the two. And there was one day about six years ago, where I actually, I took a one way ticket to Thailand. And I kind of was a bit more open to changes in my lifestyle. And I was on a boat, and a Burmese boy, I was actually helping one of my friends, she worked on the boat at the time as a scuba instructor, and like an assistant for the people on the boat. And this Burmese boy, he pulled a fish out the water and he started slicing it up while it was still alive. And he put it into a pan on the boat started eating it. And there's just obviously, as you can imagine, there's blood everywhere and the fish was alive that it wasn't. And I completely just sat there. And I felt physically nauseous from having watched him do that. But it made me then think, oh my gosh, that poor animal has just been consumed. And it was probably just, you know, having a nice day having a swim around. And it actually made me very upset. And I remember, I went to the bathroom and started crying on the boat. And I had never felt that kind of way about me before. And then I thought, well, I quite enjoy vegetarian food. So for the rest of my whole trip in Thailand, I think it was another two or so months I had left. I just didn't. There was no part of me that wanted to have any meat. Not even non si animals are just, I just thought will. I'm in a beautiful country. And I just wanted to try something different. And also it completely put me off at the time. I didn't think in my mind, when I come home, I won't eat meat again, or I didn't think of anything. I just solely went off how I felt in that moment. And then as time was going on, whilst I was in Thailand, I was trying new foods. I I actually ended up I probably must have eaten vegetarian for a few weeks. And then while I was trying different things, I probably started cutting more things out like the dairy and I started looking more at ingredients in products. And it was I started, there was a Thai lady who lived down the road from me who only made vegetarian dishes. So I just was eating with her most evenings and having a lot of fruit from the land or wherever I was eating at the time. And I started that in my free time researching on watching more documentaries on where your food comes from and the meat and dairy industries because I've turned a blind eye to it all for so many years. And I thought actually, this is disgusting, you know, and I thought why I had such a warped idea of this diet for so many years and don't want, because I had such an emotional response to seeing that animal die and get eaten. I thought, if this is how I actually feel about animals being consumed for food, because I've seen it, I was like, I must have spent years not really caring because I don't see it. So then I started watching more about it. And ever since that day, seeing the fish, I still haven't to this day eating meat. And that was six years ago, I still it just as soon as I came home, I had no feeling inside of me that ever wanted to consume meat again. And I probably spent the better half of about a year.

Understanding food, understanding what to avoid understanding that you can't really, like when I first went vegan, I think I did it wrong. Like a lot of people probably do it wrong. I just went straight to the free from aisle. And I was buying pizzas and processed foods and processed sausages that were vegan, and my diet wasn't great. I was buying a lot of protein bars. And I probably say a lot of refined sugar, things and breads and nut butters. And I didn't really think about what was doing. I just wanted to make sure it had no animal products in it. And then it took me a while to understand what worked for me what upset my body and what made me feel good. And I've probably been vegan for five years now. But I wouldn't change it for the world. And I'm still learning I'm still trying new foods all the time. But when I first went officially vegan, I actually was very angry. I was like angry that other people weren't waking up. And as whatever I was around anyone I was like, how are you eating meat? And how are you doing? They said, Oh, that was good that eggs are gross. And I was I wanted to be like very activist at the beginning. And now I've realised in my personal experience, people are more open to train the food, if I make it, or if I'm eating it, and they ask about it. Or if they see me train and they say well, what do you eat for your recovery? Or what do you have? Or, you know, how do you play rugby and body build and long distance run and you're a sprinter and I'm a hybrid so I train and loads of different disciplines and and my fitter now I've ever been in my life. And I think that makes people queer curious to learn about what an eating, you know, I don't push it on anyone. I don't say you should be vegan. I just say try this. It tastes amazing. And it will help with your recovery, or it will help with putting on sighs or it will help with losing weight or, you know, it's now I just I'm very calm about everything. And I just think I think people have a big misunderstanding about the vegan diet. You know, and vegan people, I suppose. But yeah, long story short. I think that that was the turning point for me massively because overnight I cooked meat out just from how disgusting I thought that was. So yeah.

Jim Moore 13:47

Oh, by me, yeah. Oh, well, I'll tell you. It was all it was all very overnight for me. And longtime listeners will will know this story because I've shared it a few times. But it's essentially about four and a half years ago, I watched Cowspiracy happen to come across it on on Netflix. I was I had like a little home gym in my spare room. And I was on a bike or an elliptical Connie. Remember it was something like that. And flicking through Netflix and thought this looks. I actually I thought this looks curious. I didn't I didn't even think this looks good. I was just like, What is this? Yeah, this Cowspiracy thing. And thought it was a bit of a strange title, etc watched it. At the time, I've probably felt like I was, you know, is sort of almost a bit laughable now, but at the time, I thought I was a bit of an environmentalist or at least I was you know, conscious of the of these things and yeah, recycling and all these kinds of things. And and I realised, you know, I wasn't I guess I I was sceptical actually, even when I finished watching, I still went and looked at the facts on the website, because I was kind of like, well, where's this come from? Because surely if this would be all over the place, if this was news, if this was, this was real, we'd all be talking about this, because it seemed like, the way at least they presented it. And I know, it's not quite as simplistic as this, but the way they presented it was like, you know, if we want to end climate change, just stop eating animal products. And that will be that. So I researched it found like, you know, Oxford University report and United Nations. And I was kind of like, okay, so as some credible sources have said, this stuff on this reports makes sense? Why am I so it was like over like that, that was that was the end of it. And then the next day, it was like, how do we get rid of all of this food that we've got in our house without just, you know, throwing it away? That's terribly wasteful. So it was a combination of like dried goods to food banks and fresh goods to friends and family. And and then what on earth? Do we as I probably went the opposite to you. Actually, I think. Insofar as I was at the beginning, I was very whole foods plant based, I was cooking everything from scratch. I didn't know what else to eat. So it was kind of I mean, I think it was probably a bit nutritionally deficient in places, because I'll probably wasn't thinking about the broad approach of all the things that I needed to include, but it was certainly all pretty much from a Whole Foods. Yeah, it was later I discovered, like, oh, this loads of really nice junk food out there. Oh, I'll have more of that. And I'm still, I still battle that I still have that internal battle that goes on between the, you know, the, the plant based sausages and the free from aisle versus the whole food stuffs. But I think it's nice to have a balance of two. You know, yeah, I see 20 Rule kind of thing

Nikki Cowell 17:03

at 20. I mean, at the moment, I probably could be doing a healthier prep. But to hit my macros at the moment. And because I'm being very fussy. It could be cleaner, definitely could be cleaner. But I think because this is my first bodybuilding show. And because I'm just understanding everything a bit better. It's all trial and error for me just to see what works and what doesn't. But I think I have throughout the day three, like vegan protein shakes a day, like just just to keep just to, I think, help make sure I hit a certain amount of protein a day. But I have to hit certain amount of carbs and fats and things. And I'm not gonna lie. I've been lazy. I've been lazy. I make like, I like quick meals at the moment, I just have to have quick meals that are very easy to food prep, and take wherever if I need to, and that are perfect for my macros and things like that. And I've just, I mean, I do have normal meals. But to make sure I'm hitting a certain amount, things that protein shakes, and people ask me, do you have to have protein shakes? No. Like, if you can hit your protein from food. Great. But for me, I'm just like, takes me 30 seconds to make. I'll see it off. And then I've had X amount of protein for that hour, you know, so it's just me being lazy. But like you said, it's, it's like 8020 8020 I definitely will eat. I'll definitely, definitely eat healthier after the show. For sure. Right. It's just that the moment I've got into such a routine with my diet, that I don't want to upset my body from changing it. That makes sense. Yeah.

Jim Moore 19:13

That sounds cheap. Get into it in the first place bodybuilding,

Nikki Cowell 19:21

short version or long version. And

Jim Moore 19:24

in the long version, we were all about the long version here. Okay.

Nikki Cowell 19:30

So I won't go upset. I'll try not to. So I obviously this is my first show. And I actually, I'll go backwards. So last year, sadly, while I was actually so yeah, beginning of last year, my goal was to trial for a premiership rugby team. My heart was set on that. I was training all the time. Wanna prep for that? And because of lockdown, trials were cancelled. And my by, I lost my head pretty much. And I had to just focus on doing some sort of training. So I just carried on training as normal throughout the lockdown. And then I found out trials weren't going ahead. And they were just going to scout quite a lot of international players and things like that. So my heart was kind of broke. And I thought, Do I want to carry on with rugby at the moment? Or do I not? Because that was like a really big goal of mine to play Premiership. And sadly, in September, last year, my dad committed suicide. And then when that happened, because I had been trying so hard to play premiership, so he could watch me on the TV, because he was never able to go to my games physically. And he really wanted to see me play, but he couldn't, because he was quite ill. And he had depression. And he just, it was so bad, he wouldn't leave the house. He was sectioned for 18 months, and then he'd only been out about six months. But he just he didn't. He'd made the decision a long time. Before. And he Yeah, so he passed away. And it made me stop eating, stop training. Stop sleeping. I was as you can start working. As you can imagine, I was just in a really bad way. And I didn't really know how to cope. I lost my partner shortly after that. And I just honestly felt like my world was over, as you can imagine. And I probably say, two or three months later, they were a blur. I was going through a lot of stages of grief. And I said to myself, one day, I was like, I looked in the mirror, and I was like, oh my god, I just didn't recognise myself. And I said, you need a goal. You need something to keep you focused, to get you eating again, to get your training again. And I thought to myself, What is gonna make me meticulous with my sleep, my training goal, I stopped playing rugby. I was like, not even rugby is making me want to do this. So it was strange. It was like because I kept saying to myself and needed a goal. I'd gone on my phone, or I saw something one day that advertised for a bodybuilding show. And I thought about it, I was like, wait a minute, I was like, that's a goal. And that will make me chain and that gives me focus. And I felt drawn to that. And I thought as a personal trainer, or was at the time, I thought I've never done it before. And my idea of bodybuilders was, you know, not a lot of them are vegan, not a lot of them have come from an athletic but Well, like I kind of thought what an achievement to try. And I thought, I wonder how hard it really is, and the whole experience of it. So I got a coach explained my situation. And it took me three months to get an appetite. It was difficult. He started me on maintenance calories. He said, try and hit this every day. It was hard for me to get my mind clear enough to be focused with tracking and you know, and my training was, is slow to start. I was trying. And then momentum was just it was ah, I can't explain it. It.

It doesn't matter where a place on the day. I mean, it's come round quick. It's next Sunday. But part of me that I'm very, very competitive. And obviously I want to win. But part of me thinks whatever was meant to be will be and the prep saved my life. Really. Like it actually helped me overcome depression. And it gave me such laser focus. And it was like no matter what bad things were going on at the time, because I actually was me and that scent partner were on and off and he'd actually been cheating on me for months. Send, like, I had to move home. And I had to deal with placing quests and trying to sue my dad's care team. And as you can imagine funerals and God knows what, and I just obviously battling with my own situation, and work related and finance related. And as you can imagine, and I just no matter what was going on, my mind was completely focused on PrEP. And if anyone asked me, what was the best thing I've probably ever done in my life. So far, I'd probably say this, in terms of, it gives you so much structure and like, makes you appreciate a lot of things. Because obviously, you do a bulk phase, and then a cutting phase. And it makes you care about what you're eating, and care about your training met you. I can't explain it, you just make every rep count. And every gym session matters. Whereas before, when I trained for rugby, I wasn't that bothered, I will or was. But for this, I'm like, even though you don't really win anything other than a plastic trophy, and a medal. You know, what you experience over the 10 months before a show is worth everything. So, yeah, I mean, for me, and also, sadly, my brothers passed away. So I know, when I step on stage, in a way, for me, it's like, I'm here to show I'm here to like, make you both proud in a way. And that's probably the only thing that's kind of kept me going with it. Because there's been a few occasions where I've wobbled. And I've thought, I'm not good enough for this. I've not put on enough weight for this. Because stress was so high, my cortisol levels were so high. And I just Yeah, I had to get a lot of therapy as well. Throughout that time. And because everything was so high, I was a bit all over the place, and I struggled to put on weight. So I've been nervous to know whether or not I've put on enough muscle in that time. I know my category is quite lean anyway. But it does kind of get in your head. And obviously, they do say bodybuilding can go one of two ways. Like a lot of people come out with eating problems or body dysmorphia, and things like that. But it's, it's crazy, I actually think if you can control your mind, you won't suffer with any of it. Like, for me, when I said to myself, actually take the pressure away from winning for a second. And enjoy every gym session you have, enjoy the meals you're having, and remind yourself of your why every single day. And what's meant to be will be. So it's taken a lot of pressure away from me, I feel good. I'm 11 days out. And I don't have prep rain. Really, I'm not struggling. I probably can't lift as heavy as I once was able to but

I'd recommend it to anyone who probably might have been in the same situation as me and really needed something to focus on. But it does take over your life. And I had to I had to stop playing rugby because of it. But in the rugby girls, they don't want me to win because that I have to put weight on and go straight back to rugby. But hopefully I do when because then I'll compete in finals three weeks later. And then I'll probably just put weights on and go back to rugby, who knows, I might get the itch. And I might just decide to bodybuild for the rest of my life. But I'm just gonna see what happens. But yeah, so for me, it wasn't something that I've wanted to do all my life. It literally was something that just was triggered on set from a trauma. So yeah, but it's the best thing that has ever happened to me so far. Yeah.

Jim Moore 29:31

It's difficult to know, know what to say? It's just Yeah. Yeah, apart from you know, just incredibly, I guess I'm sort of feeling a mix of emotions. Obviously just I can't imagine having been in that situation. I think this the strength the inspiration that is you know, that it gives me I just think that as an individual to have been able to show such strength in the face of have that and, you know, take control and seek the support, not just physically, like the physical side, and I could totally understand that, like, I need something to get out of bed to motivate me to drive me, but then to also think about, you know, from whatever personal tragedies I've been through in my life, nothing compared to that, you know, thank God. But the, where I've I've not been as, as focused or able to move on, is because I've never thought about the therapy side, I've always, that's always been the bit that I wouldn't wait too long to I might, I might get to the gym bit, I might, you know, a little bit I mean, nowhere near as focused, but to think about to have the presence of mind to think so holistically, when you're going through such tragedy to think I need to get my head, right, I need to get my body, right, I need to get my routines in place, I think, amazing

Nikki Cowell 31:00

100%. And I'm quite fortunate that my family are quite spiritual. Because they have really helped me shift over the years in terms of my mindset, I suppose, and with what matters and what really doesn't. And when you open up to, I mean, I don't know how spiritual you are. But I think that gives a lot of strength. Like, throughout the year, probably not only gone for actual therapy, I had all Gosh, cognitive behavioural therapy, I had. I had a support group, like post domestic violence. Like if it was like a group of women that would talk about their experiences, and then you go through, you know, how to come out the other side of that, and how to cope. And fortunately, the NHS provided some therapy after the bereavement and the separation. So that was helpful. Obviously, it's optional, but I think that everyone, even if people feel fine, people should still have therapy. Because I think sometimes people don't realise that they have things going on in their subconscious, that they've just pushed to the side and gone. No, I'm not dealing with that. I don't want to think about that. And that works for some people, but that will come back to bite you later on in life. And I used to suppress everything. And now I've done a lot of inner work, like pulling out some, some demons, and literally looking them in the face, and, and letting it go or resolving or dealing with or accepting. And a lot of people bring things from the past into the future, because they won't let go of things. So you're only reliving the pain every day. And it's hard to I struggled after that bereavement. I put my brother's bereavement in a box in the back of my mind. And I see a lot of signs for my brother on a spiritual level. So I have a lot of peace from that. Because that's like how my family deal with that situation. And we all feel very uplifted. I can't explain it, like very positive about that. Whereas, yeah, I've still probably not fully accepted. My dad's passing, I think because I spent so many years trying to help with his recovery. And I used to be a live in carer for him. And throughout that time, I think he was ill about a year. And then I was a live in carer for him for 10 months. But I started drinking a lot as a means of coping. But I'd like drink and then go to work and a drink on break and then come home and drink. And I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not going to the gym wasted. Like, that's not normal, you know, and I drink before I'd play rugby. And as soon as we came off the pitch, I'd want to drink and I couldn't even believe that I had to, you know, turn to something external as my means of like suppressing how I was feeling. And it literally was making me extremely depressed. And I ended up my dad had an attempt at the house while I was in his care. And all while he was caring for him. And he was then section on that occasion. He was in about a year. And then when he came out I said to him, you know, I can't live Then when you again, because it was too much. So we then had carers. But I think, like, I think I think if if people experienced trauma, they, especially when it's someone close to them, everyone's way of dealing with things is different. But if people ignore how they feel, it's only gonna get worse. And I think you end up taking it out on everything and everyone around you. And I remember I remember after he died, I became very, very angry. I was very, very angry, but

not at him. And I can't, I can't explain that how I felt I changed as a person. So then I tried to take myself away to heal a lot of pain. And it's, it's hard. And I spent most of the time taking it out on the weights in the gym, which I think is very therapeutic. But I think like you said, you probably struggle more to maybe want to seek actual therapy. But it's, I think, very beneficial. I didn't get a lot from counselling. But more so cognitive behavioural therapy, group therapy, I quite enjoy. And yeah, I don't know. And also, I think, exercise, like, like, you could bring yourself to go to the gym or to play rugby. But I don't know, is it? Is it? Do you feel? It's less likely for men to seek therapy? Or is it you personally?

Jim Moore 36:52

I think they're both deeply interconnected. Yeah, I definitely think you know, growing up as, as I did, you know, and I played a lot of, in a lot of sports teams, particularly rugby roots, before we recorded as a kid. And that kind of, you know, you're, you're taught to be tough. You're not, you're taught not to show pain to show weakness. Even the terminology is his weakness. You know, there's that there's that, you know, you're either strong, or you're weak.

Nikki Cowell 37:27

I think it's very strong to show vulnerability. I think it's very strong.

Jim Moore 37:34

Yeah, but I think it's not. I don't think it's taught to us as young lads growing up, you know, I hope that it's changed. I mean, I've got a little boys three. Oh, and it's, it's funny, we were talking about this the other day. In and I don't know where it's come from, but innately if he hurts himself, he often goes quiet, rather than says, No, I don't know whether that's a he's already picking up other other children at nursery. And perhaps the way people say up, you get and you know, all that kind of stuff. And we're kind of trying to proactively tell him, it's okay. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel her. It's fine. I think that's I, I think that that's where a lot of my sort of hang ups over, seeking help, or even just talking out loud to friends and family, you know, is a bit of a running joke really, that it's ironic considering or podcast, talk a lot. But it's a bit of a running joke where somebody will say, how was your day? And I'll go, Yes, all right, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

Nikki Cowell 38:46

But that I think, is what most men and most people do. Like, if someone's had a really bad day, most of the time, they just go Yeah, yeah, more, or just try and avoid it, because they probably think I don't want to be negative. I don't want to add to other people's problems. Like and you probably think, what can you do maybe to support me or I don't know what, whether it's a case of I've spoken to a few people about their struggles. And I think sometimes it's a fear of being judged. And I don't think people should feel they can't speak about things. I really struggled to talk about what I was going through, because I think as well, if other people haven't gone through a similar kind of thing. They don't get it. And sometimes people some people are just empathetic, what's the word like? empathetic, empathetic,

Jim Moore 39:51

empathetic? Yeah, empathetic so

Nikki Cowell 39:53

they'll be compassionate, whether they understand or not, but some people just maybe aren't The best people to speak to about how you're feeling. And that's why maybe turn into professionals who deal with those things, is maybe the better option. But it's like, I mean, I don't know whether you've ever heard of them. But I'm actually an ambassador for a mental health charity, which is rugby related. They're called loose heads. And they have massively helped. Yeah, they've massively helped men especially start talking about mental health struggles, because apparently, obviously, back in the olden days, especially rugby players would not talk about their feelings at all, because it's not manly, and it's not, you're gonna you're not strong, and a rugby player, if you're going to talk about your feelings, or get upset or talk about depression, or mental health, whereas now, so many men are opening up about their own struggles, addictions, or issues or mental health problems or anxiety. And I think it's actually really nice, because it's just spreading support. And it's nice that men, especially rugby playing, men, are becoming more vulnerable, because I think it's looking at younger generations who look up to them. And now feeling actually, I can open up to and that's and also because my dad was massively struggled with depression, but he was undiagnosed Aspergillus as well. So socially, he, he was an extremely professional gentlemen. Like, he was just so professional all the time, he couldn't switch it off. Because he didn't kind of know how to be any other way. And he would never, ever have said he wasn't okay. i You could literally physically see that he was not okay. And I'd say that to you. Okay. He could have just come out of hospitality. But yeah, I'm fine. And I'm like, No, you're not? Well, he wouldn't have spoke about it. And he would have never, he would have never told any of us that he was suicidal. Never. I mean, obviously, we knew from a previous attempt that was unsuccessful. But I'd spoken to him on the Monday, he taken his life on the Thursday, you know, I was like, there was no sign other than, to be fair, in hindsight, sometimes there are big signs, when you can tell someone struggling, whether they say it or not, like, there was the whole fridge was full of food that he hadn't eaten. And it's one of them, like, you just you can pick up on some things. But like, I think, like, in my dad's circumstance, even though he had professional help, sometimes it's not enough. And I think some help better than no help. You know, like, I used to be a very angry teenager, very angry, very rebellious, very, I didn't want to go to school, I didn't want to deal with my parents. I was very against the world, I just wanted to go out and rebel and be on the park with a two litre bottle of strong bow. And just, you know, it didn't really have a I didn't know what to do with my life. And I was very like, lost. I never spoke about my feelings, never to my parents, I never felt comfortable. It was never a conversation that could be held.

And then it was strange. brother passed away. And Mum went very spiritual after everything for me. And then I was like, Oh, my gosh, I need to care about my mental health. And then I just started doing more inner work started getting more spiritual. And I think when you actually drop your walls and say, I need a bit of help, even if you go to just your partner, or if you feel you can't speak to your partner about it, maybe your family if you feel you can't speak to your family, maybe your rugby mates, or your friends from work. We can't speak to them. Or definitely say a professional. Or even just sometimes you don't even have to physically speak to someone who can respond. I actually found it quite nice to go to like farms. I was going to farms. There's like a alpaca farm and OB edge. And I just would go and speak to an animal. They can't say anything back. But sometimes you get it off your chest, or however you're feeling and then you stroke this fluffy animal or you're with your animals at home. And you're just I don't know what I feel like you A lot of people do things to try and help their mental health. I think you've got to find what works for you. And it's, and it's never too late to seek help, either. You know? So like you said, you, you might not be that kind of person to go for therapy. What do you lose going for one session, you know, after one session, you might think, Oh, my God, I need this regularly. You know, sometimes you don't gel with the professional, I've probably had three and spoke to one for a couple of weeks and thought, you know, maybe counselling is not for me. Glad to tried it. Go on to cognitive behavioural therapy, the ladies really nice, she might move job, you might have to go somewhere else you might get on with them. The person I speak to now isn't one to one anymore, it's just over the phone. And sometimes it's nice to have a chat with someone you don't even know. It just makes you feel better takes a bit of a weight off your shoulders. So I do think that, you know, even if you feel like you do in, okay, sometimes just going for a therapy session, you might think, actually not dealt with that. Maybe this will help. You might leave and think, no, absolutely fine. But I'm just glad to have spoke to someone. So yeah, I don't know.

Jim Moore 46:37

Do you think there's just a thought as we were talking there about? There's a gym on every corner. There's personal trainers everywhere, you know, everywhere. There's so many different personal trainers, different types of personal trainer, different focus areas, you know, all kinds. And it just made me think, you know, with when it comes to mental health, I think about how you've gone on that journey of, you know, through the kind of stages of grief and you worked your way through and you are where you are now and you're still, you know, still obviously, like you said still processing but at the same time, you're, you're seeing the the path ahead. Yeah. Not all the way down it. And you very clearly took steps to say, my mental health, my physical health, they're, they're on an equal level 2% equal playing field. Yeah. And it just makes me think, you know, society generally, we we've got we're very comfortable valuing physical health. Not mental health, there isn't a therapist on every corner, there isn't like adverts on TV about you know, getting getting help in that way. Like there is when you compare it to, you know, join X gym or, you know, do do this exercise, or we're just not in the same space culturally, I think is moving that way. But just be be interesting to get your your sort of take on all of that really is less of a question more just a thought, or just why isn't it on a level playing field? You

Nikki Cowell 48:16

know? I proved I think a lot of people see mental health in like, maybe a negative, you know, in a negative way, maybe? Like, I think if someone said, Oh, I have mental health issues, they would immediately someone would immediately assume, Oh, you know, that they're full of problems. Whereas, actually, they could just sometimes struggle with anxiety. And that's completely normal and extremely common. Or some people might be going through the flow of waves of depression or something might have happened and at like a lot of people if something happens to them, that they struggled to deal with. I think they tend to self sabotage before they turn to support. So like, for example, like I've done in the past, if something and my brother sadly passed away from addiction, he overdosed, but and it's obviously shifted my kind of outlook on self sabotage, because it's very easy to fall into. But a lot of people now like if they're stressed at work, relationship problems, bereavement, God knows you name any issue. They'll turn to alcohol, they tend to smoking, they'll tend to binge eating, they'll tend to partying, taking drugs. anything that isn't probably of a healthy, you know, if they can't cope with whatever situations going on, instead of thinking, I should go and sort myself out or I should go and deal with this healthily, they think I don't want to think about that. I want to distract myself from that, from the pain from the thoughts. A lot of people can't face their own thoughts. So they think, how do I stop the thoughts? How do I distract from the thoughts? So I think a lot of people would find it easier. Are they just, they'd rather potentially negatively affect their physical and mental health as a means of coping. They're naturally thinking, how can I help really move forward from this. And I think it's not as encouraged. You know, if something bad happens, even though that is advertised, you know, you can go to this place, or NHS has support for X, Y, and Zed. Also, I think a big thing. There's very limited funding. For the NHS, I remember, I probably looked after my dad for the better half of four and a half years, on and off, I must have gone to maybe six or seven hospitals, carries it counter check tested, tested. The hospital, there was one in Wales, that Macclesfield hospital, and he had to keep moving, he had to keep moving, the mental health sections of hospitals were getting smaller. And also, because the funding is limited. Most people with a variety of mental health problems are all put together in a hospital. So even if you've just got something very, very mild, like anxiety, and may be very, very light depression, maybe you just overworked like my dad was originally you could be put next to very close to someone with schizophrenia, with psychosis with you know, some people are quite aggressive. And some people massively struggle. And some people are down here, but they're all put under mental health, and they're all put together. And my dad, I remember him saying to me, he, it's not normal, like you see. And as he said, it was like, everyone was seen as the same, even though they're completely different. And he said, it's just due to lack of funding. And I think the NHS are very much like, here's some antidepressants, which I also believe to be a form of self sabotage. Because antidepressants ruin my dad, you become addicted sleeping tablets. Some of these antidepressants are completely nomming. They make you very neutral, the mate, you're not happy, but not sad. And you're just a bit blank. Sometimes it just prescribed so much. And I just think the NHS

should have better ways. So like, if you were overworked and depressed, and it was causing a rift in your relationship with some of them, you should be able to go to the NHS and say, This is how I'm feeling, this is what I'm going through, they should say, Okay, you should reduce your working hours to this until you feel ready again. Or you should take a week off. Here's a letter. This will help you know you should go to the gym, it will probably help your relationship but it'll help your work life, maybe change your diet, change a few things come back in a couple of months if you still feel the same, right? Whereas actually, whatever you say, they'll say, here's some antidepressants, numb yourself. See you later. And that is exactly what they did to my dad, they should have told him to just work a bit less and go on holiday. That would have completely sorted him out. When he had a nervous breakdown. He was working seven days a week. They should have said to him work less, but they didn't. They go Oh, you're depressed. Here's some tablets, and then that cycle starts. So I think I think people should see going for support or therapy. Just as important as going to train. Or in a way if some people didn't feel comfortable to go for therapy. I think people should be open to meditation or doing inner work and understanding But they need to work on themselves. And a lot of people are resentful for their partners or they should be this way they should be that way. How often do they look in the mirror and go? Wait a minute? What toxic traits have you got? That? Maybe they don't like? You know, a lot of people want to avoid their own issues. And they distract from it. And I think it takes a lot of courage and strength to go inwards. And say, what's, what needs what needs fixing here? You know, because your mental health, like you said, it's just important as your physical health. And I realised as well, as a personal trainer, you're also a counsellor. A lot of people come for sessions, just to talk, because sometimes they don't feel like they can anywhere else. So it's one of them. Sometimes people I booked a session because my home life is chaotic. And I just want to get out for an hour, you know, and I just think you could be having therapy, you know, but some people training is therapy. Like, for me, it's definitely therapy. And there's probably a lot of different types of therapy as well as yoga is therapy to some people, playing video games is therapy, some people painting, painting, therapeutic, swimming to some people, but I don't know, I think hopefully, one day the NHS will have more funding, more support will be open, and I hope schools I remember when I was in school. I can't remember there being a lot of mental health health. I can't remember at all, not at all. Yeah, and I actually really struggled at school because I mean, luckily, it's not the case. Now, back in the day, massively struggled with my home life. And I was kicked out on a 16. And remember, she'll kill me for this. But my mum rang the school up and told the school I'd anger management problems. I got put separate from other kids, because they the school assumed that anger management problems, and I remember I had some form of counselling. And the woman was like, there's nothing wrong with you. And I was like, I seem like an angry because I'm angry that she said, I've got anger management problems. But it was because she was trying to hide her issue with alcoholism at the time as well. So it was, Oh, I think I wish I'd had more support at school. So hopefully schools will provide more support for children because it will help them with their education as well. Because look, how many children struggle because of the pressure of education now? I think it's crazy, especially in grammar schools, is their mental health support and grammar schools. I'm not sure interesting to look into to be honest. What are your thoughts on airbrushing when

Jim Moore 58:01

you were spread wide? Especially when you I think you're absolutely right. I think it makes me think a couple of things. One's you know, in the curriculum is Pe is is games is you know, there's even a bit of Homeric there's, there's kind of like, you know, this is how you feed yourself. This is how you look after yourself physically, there's, there's I'm not saying it's, it's holistic it covers all of those bases but there's a little bit of that you know, we could all talk about it could be better for you know, physical education etc. But like you and it may be different in schools now of course my little ones too young to be there just yet, but yeah, I've seen no, I saw at the time anyway, no acknowledgement of that. There was such a thing as you know, mental health or that you should look after your your mind. And, and it makes me think so something else. Just going back to something you said right at the beginning, is our attitude to mental health and then our attitude to physical health with physical health. We were preventative. We think before we don't we don't just tell people to go to the gym when they are unable to Yeah, yeah. Or walk Yeah, perhaps they've got some real physical problems. We tell people to go to the gym early like yeah, no,

Nikki Cowell 59:26

to prevent that from happening wrong with them. Yeah,

Jim Moore 59:28

you have to prevent it. But with mental health we almost like wait for there to be a problem. Yeah, an incident breakdown a trauma. So that those those things all all kind of into intertwines, I suppose the other thing so just reflecting on what you said about funding, is you know is is easy to to monetize this preventative kind of the the gym that is easy to monetize. Is that physical health? Yeah. You know, because everyone wants to everyone has this kind of like, ideal of what they want to look like and how they should feel and all these kind of things. So it's kind of easy to monetize. Whereas, whereas that's not going solely on Yeah, we're relying solely on national on the National Health Service. Yeah.

Nikki Cowell 1:00:21

And I think I think it does put, it must put most people off that, like, the average therapy session is at least 40 pound an hour. Like, I think the most I've ever paid for therapy session is about 75 pound, just for the hour. So imagine if you felt like you needed therapy once a week, it made you break the bank, you know, I mean, that's probably why some people avoid it, because some people probably can't afford it. And, and then, like, there's probably waitlists for the NHS, there's lack of funding, they're waiting lists of people getting enough support quickly. No, not really. So it's, it's a hard one, whereas in the gym, some gyms are really cheap, you just go to the gym, you know, whereas it's not as easily accessible. For support for the mental health, I think, like you said, as well, there should be something in the curriculum like mindfulness, which is like a combination of, I don't know, stretching, yoga, meditation, or even learning about how to cope with mental health problems, or how to deal with stress, or, you know, I think I think people should learn about it, and understand the signs in themselves or in their partners or, because sometimes it's a case of, I think, some people don't know how to deal with other people's mental health either, because maybe they don't understand their own, they don't know how to help someone else. Like I struggled to understand what was going through my dad's mind, because he couldn't verbally explain to me. So sometimes you don't know what to do. So I think people should be able to learn about it, but it's not as, it's not as easy as that. Now, like I said, but it's made me think now, like, it makes you think, how can we how can we help, you know more people to maybe want to seek therapy? It's hard, because it's like, do I? Do I go to the NHS or wait, hopefully, for therapy, which might only last for weeks, because the NHS cap, how many sessions you're allowed, might be 10, you might be allowed 10 hours, spread over a certain amount of time. But that's capped, and you have to wait for it. Or if you get a pay for it, have you got 40 to 70 pounds an hour? Or as often as you need, you know? So it's, it's a hard one, where's the in between? I think maybe I think people should find what works for them. Because maybe therapy is not the option for everyone. Yeah, so maybe maybe gyms should have something. They should have some some sort of class or seminar or not sure. I don't know.

Jim Moore 1:03:37

It did cross my mind. You know, as we were talking about it, I thought, I wonder, I wonder what like a mental health gym would look like.

Nikki Cowell 1:03:45

That's interesting. Oh, you know, you've just reminded me, when I was a member of dW fitness, one of the PTS that has names will will barn he actually set up something called, I think it was called inner circle. And it was at the gym, but in a separate room. And it was for people to sit in a circle and share. And you didn't even have to share if you didn't want to. And then he'd he'd make people do like a scenario. I can't explain it. It was like a guided thing. And then everyone explained their perception of this scenario, and it was interesting to see. I can't explain it. It was like, very intimate. But I think things like that aren't for everyone. You know, some people probably don't want to share in front of strangers. Some people don't want to share in front of groups. But for me, I thought it was wonderful. And it was mixed. It was men and women. And I was actually surprised how vulnerable some men were in those sessions. So and I think that cost I think I think he charged a couple of quid For the hour, and it was actually quite nice. So you could literally just go and train there you go in the coffee shop. There was like a separate room and just go in. It was like an inner circle. It was quite nice. And I think I only went only went to two. I can't remember how long it went on for but yeah, it was good. So maybe idea though. Yeah, it was nice. Yeah, it was nice. But oh, and also another thing, which I don't know whether people know about completely, maybe irrelevant, but he actually is involved with sober dance. So for people who want to rave or dance, but not feel the need to take drugs or drink, because I think he may have come out of used to be an addict, or potentially on potentially lost someone to being an addict. But he supports like sober dance, and raves that are completely sober. And yeah, that's advertised on Instagram, if anyone wants to have a look at that, but that could be another thing for some people who may be want to still feel involved or social, but not feel tempted by addiction, or want help coming out the other side of it? I'm not sure. But there are things out there. I just think they're not encouraged enough. You know?

Jim Moore 1:06:24

Yeah. That's yeah. Sounds like there's there's the odd sort of pioneering individuals. Yeah. There's the old organisation that's trying things. Probably needs more,

Nikki Cowell 1:06:37

more of that. allistic. Yeah, and I think I think it's nice. It's true. The guys have brought out the vegan rugby club, like the first UK best vegan team. I mean, it's a shame. We haven't got a first full women's team. Because it's probably not that common to be a vegan rugby playing woman. But I love it. So if anyone's thinking about doing that, I can recommend 100% Yeah,

Jim Moore 1:07:09

but 100% Looking for more women on the team. Yeah.

Nikki Cowell 1:07:14

And any, any ability? Absolutely. Yeah. Even if you've never played,

Jim Moore 1:07:22

that's a key part. Yeah. That's a key part of the ethos of the club isn't it is to either everyone's welcome. regardless of ability, or, you know, gender or anything, you know, you come on come on kind of thing. So yeah. Couldn't agree more with that statement? Yeah. And I'm hoping one last time, we all got together. Oh, gosh,

Nikki Cowell 1:07:43

I really enjoyed that. I actually thought I'd be shocking because I had a sprained ankle. my right ankle was strapped up. And I thought, oh, gosh, I'm gonna just look, you know, shocking, but actually, I could still kick it, I could still run around. So I had a good laugh. And you're, you could kick for one side of the pitch to the other. It made me literally go home and be like, right, I've got to practice on this tea, because I just couldn't believe it. But, you know, it must be all that vegan, whole plant based diet, you know,

Jim Moore 1:08:21

sort of that all the junk food. I don't know. It's the when I was young that like we were saying before we recorded this is having to play rugby all the time and wanting to play football. I probably can't a lot of geeky. Yes. All the time in frustration.

Nikki Cowell 1:08:37

A lot love that. Yeah. I mean, I can't wait for vegan junk food. I've already planned in my mind and when I have a massive burger, cheesy nachos, Cheesy fries. Maybe I bet I can't even eat it. Because my stomach will definitely shrug. But I'm going to try

Jim Moore 1:08:54

probably how many weeks now?

Nikki Cowell 1:08:59

Next Sunday

Jim Moore 1:09:00

is Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, it was like 11 days, some

Nikki Cowell 1:09:03

days, 11 days. So I can I'm in my head. So I can have a big 111 days, which I cannot wait for. I've also which I will probably tag you in if they're any good. I've pre ordered the vegan Biscoff donuts, mixed mix box of vegan Biscoff doughnuts for post show. So if they're good, I will tag the donut company. It's probably not a good thing as a personal trainer to encourage donut cells. But if they're amazing, I've got to say, but I thought Yeah, I don't know. And then I don't think as well. A lot of people think that vegan food will taste nice. Like I wish. I wish looking back when I wasn't vegan. I wish I'd said to myself, I'll try vegan food. See if it's nice It's actually so much nicer than the food I ate previously. Like, I'm shocked. Like, I could order any vegan dish from most restaurants and love it. And you never get food poisoning. That's what I found. You just can't get food poisoning ever don't know you just don't. So yeah, I mean, I don't know whether you recommend anywhere for food. Do you recommend like a favourite restaurant or anything?

Jim Moore 1:10:31

I've got I've got lots of lots of places. I think one of the the ones that stands out, it's just jumped to my head, probably because I'm hungry for this specific thing right now. Is I think it's called is it called Young vegans. Or if I'm wrong, I'll put this in the show notes and correct it. But there's a there's a pie shop in Camden. Wow. That sells vegan pie and mash. And it is fantastic. I mean, unreal. I love it. The odd occasion that I am going to use your football match in in London where I make this dramatic detour to, to this pie shop so that they bake. It's really small. It's right, right near Camden lock. And it's like it's almost a kiosk rather than a restaurant really. But, but it's absolutely fantastic. Like literally my one of my favourite places to eat. And then if I'm feeling a bit more Yeah, is young vegan. So we go if I'm feeling a bit more health conscious then I do like that deliciously Ella's restaurant

Nikki Cowell 1:11:50

restaurant. I know and I've heard is deliciously Ella. Yeah, I think I've tried the site peanut butter cups, or something that you can get from Tesco. I've tried like the little protein balls or deliciously Ella cheese.

Jim Moore 1:12:04

That's right. Yeah, she's got into that kind of world of things sold in supermarkets and in like the place to find them in place up boots and stuff. Yeah. But prior to that she did like a series of cookbooks and so on. And she had she did have two restaurants. I think there's only one now, but it's in way on way how street. So if you if you're on Oxford Street, it's like the street behind the street. Is it all vegan? Yeah, it's all vegan. Yeah, vegan. But the word vegan is not anywhere in the restaurant. You just Yeah,

Nikki Cowell 1:12:41

I like food. I like that. Because people are going in with. You know, sometimes you could take your family who may be against vegan food. Like my family. Take the mick out of me. Every time I order something. They're like, what is that? And I'm like, it's just not got animal products in it. Sometimes. Oh. Oh, sorry. I might have someone here. Oh, gosh, what time is it? Now? The front door? Bear with me one second. to mind.

Jim Moore 1:13:12

Obviously. It's hard. Okay, well,

Nikki Cowell 1:13:15

do you want me to love you and leave you? Because I've got someone at the door?

Jim Moore 1:13:19

Yeah, yeah. That's my favourite end to a podcast over one second.

Like he's just gone to, to answer the door.

Nikki Cowell 1:13:37

Sorry. Yeah. I have to say bye. Bye. It was lovely to speak to you.

Jim Moore 1:13:44

It was great chatting to you. Hopefully I'll see you at the green gazelles. Yeah, November.

Nikki Cowell 1:13:49

Yeah. Hopefully see you then. And now. Thank you. And thank you so much.

Jim Moore 1:13:56

And good luck. I hope you have an amazing show. Thank you so much, and you enjoy the donor.

Nikki Cowell 1:14:01

And thank you so much for asking me to be on the podcast. I really, really enjoy chatting to Johan.

Jim Moore 1:14:06

Thank you. Thank you for everything. It's been amazing. Thank you. See you later. Bye

Bye.

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