Veganuary stories - Ericka Durgahee, Marketing Manager with The Vegan Society

Jan 28

Ericka Dugarhee

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

vegan, vegans, companies, people, trademark, products, big, businesses, animals, vegetarian, veganism, world, bit, conversation, great, registered, veg, eat, charity, alternative

SPEAKERS

Jim Moore, Robot, Ericka Durgahee

Jim Moore 00:00

Robot 01:11
This is a bloody vegans production.

Jim Moore 01:28

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast The Bloody Vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week, I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric. And this week is no different. I spoke with Ericka Dugarhee the marketing manager over at the Vegan Society. And obviously, I've had a few conversations with folks from the Vegan Society. As you know, we spoke to Tim Thorpe, and a had live chat with Tim Thorpe as well. And Dr. Lockwood also worked with the Vegan Society on the planting value in our food system report. It was on a couple of months ago now. And I think way back with a chat with Matt Turner, who was a press officer at the time, I think for the Vegan Society. This one is another if I do say so myself another really fascinating discussion. Ericka looks after marketing, obviously. And that, a big part of that piece of work includes the vegan trademark,

which is just an area of incredible kind of interest to me is something like 58,000 products out in the in the wild, that have been accredited by the Vegan Society. And so I wanted to find out a little bit more about what that kind of accreditation looked like and understand a little bit about it and also put some of the perhaps objections from within the sort of, quote unquote vegan community to Ericka, things like, you know, are big businesses using the vegan society's trademark to greenwash and things like that. And you know, how stringent is it? Are we are we just taking something that was already kind of vegan, but was wasn't particularly ethically made was kind of made of plastics and so on, and slapping a vegan label on it? Or is there actually a conversation with a company that really does change things? And so I'll leave it up to you to decide when we get in to the conversation. But I was, I was really sort of surprised, actually, probably the more the more cynical side of me, was appeased a little bit, shall we say, abated by Ericka's fantastic kind of responses to some of those questions. So I'll let you be the be the judge. I think it's really interesting conversation. To be honest, I think we could have gone for another hour or two talking just about individual cases within the sort of vegan trademark, but, you know, time didn't allow so without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Ericka Durgahee, the marketing manager over at the Vegan Society

Ericka Durgahee 04:18

I think like I've always been conscious of like the world around me, which I know sounds a bit weird, but even as a sort of young child, I, I remember like my dad, often complaining about things like the lights being on taps running, so on and instead of equating that to like, oh, it costs us money to use those things. And he's obviously doesn't want to spend money on lights being on. I was like, oh, is the world just gonna run out of water at some point? Like, what's that all about? Um, you know, I was sort of eight at the time. And I sort of always remember having like this weird sinking feeling about the planet which is unusual, I guess for my age, but When I hit 12, I like we grew up in a house full of like, I guess what would be companion animals now, but were pets back when I was a kid. You know, dogs, cats, rabbits, you name it birds, all sorts were there that usually adopted or taken in from people that didn't want their want them anymore. And when I hit about 12, I remember, it was like my 12th birthday, and we'd gone out to laser tag for you know, like you do, because I was 12. And we'd gone to, you know, a

famous, fast food chain to get food afterwards. And I remember sitting them saying to my group of sort of 10 friends that I had brought with me to laser tag was like, by the way, I'm vegetarian now. And I was holding a chicken sandwich. And, you know, obviously, everyone looked back at me and was like, What do you mean, you've gone vegetarian? And I was like, you know, I don't eat animals anymore. And they're like, Well, what's in your hand? And I was like, Okay, after this, I'm going vegetarian. And yeah, so technically, I've officially been vegetarian since the day after my 12th birthday. And, yeah, and I was, it was always for, you know, a lot of a lot of like, the conversations I would have with people, like the background is always for the animals in my mind. I, I didn't like the thought of, you know, what would happen if I killed an animal to eat it? Like, I can imagine myself doing that. So why would I put another person through doing that? So like, could eat them but hadn't made that like, click about veganism? At that point, mainly, I guess, like the world was different. Like it was then, like, early 2000s. Restaurants had like one vegetarian option, let alone vegan options. Nothing had even suitable for vegetarians on the packet there was like nothing really. And so I'd already thought that I was doing more than enough back then. And anyway, like, the first vegans that I met, I was at university and it always, like, sparked conversations with people that would be like, you know, what are you like up, like eggs and milk? And I would always have this, like, I guess I fell for the marketing, right? The like, well, it's animal waste, like I was brought up to believe that cows just make milk and you know, we need to milk them. And somehow, they

didn't do that without human humans existing, they would unfortunately, just explode from all the milk that they made, right. And it just never really made any sense. But that that was what I believed, like back then I was quite strong about it. And I, I you know, fast forward a little bit more ahead to the, my mid 20s. I guess I'd been vegetarian for over 15 years at that point. And I stumbled across a YouTube video that was like, No, this is the dairy industry. No, like chickens who are male just get like incinerated in a little weird mincer because they don't contribute to the chicken industry, right. And I remember like, having arguments with my mom about free range and all of that stuff, and then just watching these videos just like, okay, that's exactly what I've been trying to be against my whole life, but have have didn't know that that was a thing, right. And that was just obviously with food. There was a separate journey about cosmetics and animal testing, and discovering, uh, Anita Roddick, and the body shop and all of that hard work that she was doing back in the 80s. To really bring that to light, right? Like, don't you find it unusual that we have it the wrong way around like products should say tested on animals on the pack, not not tested on animals, like it should be something that like people are allowed to know if that's happened and make that choice rather than just assume? Maybe they haven't, like, unusual to me, but yeah, so I'd already started that journey from a cosmetics place. But I got to like 28 Watch this video and was like, Okay, what do I do? Because I don't know anything about veganism. I don't know where to go. And quick Google search, obviously the top two charities that came up because I guess we Yun isms predominantly run by charity is, was the Vegan Society, and all of their great information and recipes. And Veganuary, who, you know, are a charity, they've managed to completely disrupt a market in. They started in 2014. Right? So this is the only the eighth Veganuary that has existed, but at the time, like that was, you know, 2018 was one of their peak years, I guess, where there was a really big jump in people that knew what it was. And I speak to lots of companies now who've still just think it's a month that exists like Stoptober or whatever, right? It's just got a weird term but has no overarching history behind it. And actually, there is a big charity behind it. And I remember being like right I'm going to do it. January is my month. I think the try the transition but weigh in, you know, obviously wasn't eating much dairy and eggs anyway, but go in that final step. So I was one of the official pledges I think of 2018. So I am in one of those numbers, I think for the year. And the I really remember like, at first just being like, what am I doing? Is this the right decision? How? Like, what does this mean for like, me? Is it right? Obviously, so many people, question everything that you're doing all of a sudden, when you do something that is a normal, or like normal to what's going on around you. But what was so lovely about Veganuary was obviously, you got an email every day, which was cool. But it was just like a good resource that was like, here are some facts based on science, here are some documentaries, you can go watch, here are some that don't have any animal cruelty in so that you don't, you know, get sad about that. And that that was it really, you know, that first month felt really scary, like, I'm not gonna lie, like, it felt really scary for me. And I was only transitioning from vegetarian, but it was like I am. So I feel so out of the norm right now. And I feel so out of sync with the world. But I know that what I'm doing is right, right. And there's like an ethical implication here. And, and there was a few things that were like, great. I was like, Oh, my goodness, I have been told that as a vegetarian, my only source of protein is eggs. And I've never liked eggs. And I've been forced to eat them. And now I don't have to eat them. And it's magical and lovely. And I never have to look at a yolk again. But like I say, there was something like chocolate and, and I never wanted to like lie and pretend that it was like an easy adventure. So like, my friends were like, Oh, how are you finding the cheese and I'll be like, it sucks. Like, we just don't eat cheese over here in the vegan land, it's fine. But now like, you know, obviously, we fast forward just three years, four years, there are some amazing cheeses I did a wine and cheese pairing at the weekend, and you know, you can just eat them on their own. Nowadays, there's, there's still some some questionable products, obviously, some really great items out there. And, and

yeah, and I remember being like cheese and chocolate, I'm just gonna have to like forego those

for the animals, it's fine. And I remember in my head always just being like, you need to remember like, this is a journey, like you're not perfect. Don't feel horrendously guilty if you make some sort of error, or you eat something by accident, or, you know, you're finishing off products in your cupboards or whatever. But at the same time, I was like, remember why you're doing this, you're doing this because of the animals, right? Like, this is not just for me personally, it wasn't for my health. It wasn't for like, like any of the other reasons it was, it was for the animals it was for the planet it was I don't want things to suffer so that I can live because that isn't a necessary thing that can occur. And so every time I came back to that, it was a bit of a slow adventure, I would like go back on myself a little bit here and there. And then as the you know, the rest of the month and February continued that was it. I was like, right. No, this is me now. I'm actually one of the few things that I really enjoyed about it was like, you know, obviously, there's the bit about fear, but actually, I felt like I was really part of a community finally, and a community that made sense to me. For once, like, I was like, okay, there are Facebook groups, when somebody says that they're really upset about the animals like I agree, and like it doesn't feel hypocritical, there's no confusion here. Like I just, I'm just so here for this right and I, I genuinely felt like I was within a community there's there's not been a person that I've met who, you know, doesn't doesn't kind of resonate that fact back that there's always there's spectrums. Within it, there are people who are like, super aggressive, and, you know, want to show scary stuff. And then there are people who are just like, we're just cracking on like, this is you know, we're all making our own little impact or whatever. And there's all the people in between those two scales of the spectrum. And it's just so nice to connect with people from all those different strings and hear that no matter what, there's something in common going on there. Right. There's some positive positivity that's happening out of that. And so yeah, so 2018 Like, I remember going to I signed up to loads of vegan festivals signed up to all the Facebook groups. At the time I lived in Luton started looking out for the vegan restaurants like shout out to Monstera canteen if you're ever in Luton please go there there are magical bunch who have a solely vegan restaurant in Luton and a really really cool guys. We like I remember like being like, right I'm going to go to this thing called Vegan campout going to the just feed Show Veg Fest like I went to every single one because I was like, I want to know what all the vegan products are. I want to talk to people who are excited about veganism, I want to go and make some friends. And that's exactly what happened. You know, I went to just fee and I became a member of the Vegan Society before I was even staff. I remember I think if you signed up at that particular event, you got like a free goodie bag of things. And I was like, yes, like, this is when I'm gonna sign up. So I got my free goodie bag of things from the Vegan Society became a member that obviously gives you access to things like newsletters and discounts they've got I think one of the good ones, one of the best ones probably is the you get 10% off at Holland and Barrett, which, back in 2018 was one of the few places that you could buy vegan things

Jim Moore 15:47
doing your weekly shop there not that long ago.

Ericka Durgahee 15:50

Saving that 10% was really vital, right? And actually, for the sake of the cost of the membership, like some instances, you'd make that back just in that discount. But also it was just like, you know, I'm helping fund that charity and figure out what's going on from there. And

then yeah, and then went to vegan campout stayed in the loneliness area. For anyone who's been to camp out or knows about that there's there's a big loneliness area, so you don't have to worry if you go on your own, you'll make some friends. And I I ended up sharing a 12 person tent. I think my now friend Natasha brought with eight other ladies. And that's it, we became vegan friends. So that was like a huge a huge win. Because no one in my family is vegan. No one in my family is vegetarian. Not many of my real close friends are veggie or vegan. So it
was quite cool to start this sort of new circle of people. And then, yeah, fast forward to 2020 obviously, pandemic hips. I was furloughed, I worked for a large car manufacturer, corporation, and I was furloughed. I had just been promoted in February, and then I was furloughed in April. So just done a huge amount of work, and then reached a point where it was like, Okay, we don't need you anymore. Thank you for launching that car goodbye. Which, to be honest, was magical. Like I had five months of sitting on my sofa, like that has never happened. I've worked every day for most of my life. So actually having like a really long break, was quite nice. I lived on my own at that point. And it was just me and my cat. And it was summer. Obviously, we couldn't really go out and see many people. But it just was a guess a bit of a welcomed break. Despite obviously, everything that was going on at that time. And over at the Vegan Society, I guess I'd been keeping an eye on a few of the jobs that they had coming out. But I knew for my particular level of experience, there wasn't anything that had come out quite yet that was in line with what I was looking for. But then in June, the marketing manager role came up, specifically, obviously, the role that I'm basically doing now. And I remember being like, right, I'm going to take a month to apply for this. There was a month to a month, they leave it open for a month. And I was like, right, I'm going to fill in this application, it's going to take me a month. And I'm going to look at it every day. And I'm going to double check that everything I've written makes sense because I'm like, This is my job. And I remember mentioning to my my old boss. She had previously left the corporation not just like message, my boss was like, Hey, I'm applying for this job. Can you help? My previous boss? And she she just replied and was like, That job just looks like the job for you. Like, if I was to make up a job, it would be that right? And. And yeah, and like a few other people mentioned it when I was like, Yeah, I'm considering this job, but it's in Birmingham. I'm not I'm not 100% Sure. Yeah, obviously, like I've got a workout that I'm doing at my corporation. And then I applied for it anyway. And the process
was a little bit back and forth. I think it took another month to even have an interview. Back to the V inside and I guess that was a result of you know, at that time, like the vegan side. I think we're also considering following people they weren't sure if anyone was gonna want to take on the trademark, I guess or if businesses were going to put that as like a lower level priority because it is a cost and and move away from it. But actually, none of that happened. We've just continued to keep growing, which is super exciting. But the the like I guess the logistics of hiring for the job that I was going for just took a bit longer than I guess normally how we recruit now. And yeah, and I had my my interview in July. And I thought oh my goodness, like what am I going to do with my current job? Like, what do I do and then the next week, my company offered up voluntary redundancy And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna apply for voluntary redundancy. And I somehow convinced my, you know, actual boss that it was the right decision to pay me to leave. And it actually managed to just completely coincide. So I accepted my voluntary redundancy with my corporation. Back in, like, end of August, and then I started. Sorry, yeah, around August time. And then I started like a couple of days later with a Vegan Society. So I didn't really even have any downtime. So for me, I was like this. I don't know if the universe is telling me that this is supposed to happen. I don't know if that's the thing or not. But it feels like that. Suppose this is all supposed to be happening. So yeah, so I came into the role. In 20. Back end of 2020, the department was like a couple of people who mainly managed like the Wii and trademark has its own set of social media channels that are slightly separate to the charity, just because it's about talking about vegan products. And, you know, we don't, we don't want to clog up the the charity feed with all of those great campaigns and education

pieces was just lots of products everywhere. So we, we've got a separate set of social medias. And there was a person who managed all of that and wrote some blogs and created some amazing content. And then we had an events officer, and that was the team. And then I came in, and that, you know, I still consider it my dream job, even to this day, I get to talk to brands every single day and either try and get them to add more vegan products, how to launch their vegan products, how to talk to the vegan consumer, how to, you know, manage that completely new market for a lot of businesses that we work with some great businesses that just happened to be vegan. And then there are some that introduce ranges or as a result of working with us just transitioned. Okay, yeah, we'll just turn everything vegan because that's an easier supply chain, which happens as a result of conversations that we have, or events that we go to, or people that we meet, which just even now just feels, you know, it doesn't sound like real that my job is to tell people about veganism. And they listen. Yeah, and you know, like I say, yesterday, we, we had a little event with one of our newer clients who have just launched three new flavours of doughnuts. And they're all registered with the vegan trademark. And we just headed over to one of their spots and got given some free donuts to take pictures of and make fun Instagram rails and tic toc content for which just doesn't it just doesn't sound real. But it is and yeah, and I just that that full journey is is now just like, just culminated in Yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be. I think

Jim Moore 23:01

that that vegan trademark thinking right back to your journey like because I think it sort of it has a sort of a place for all of us as in the vegan community I think you sort of like your your eyes are somehow kind of trained to spot it from across from across the supermarket aisles and so on. What what did it kind of represent to you going into it? And then when you were when you were part of it? Did the officer kind of almost a bit of a weight to that in a sort of odd way?

Ericka Durgahee 23:34

Yeah. No, like it's a it's so interesting, isn't it? Because what started as like just looking on pack for somebody to maybe put that it's suitable for vegans somewhere in tiny writing. But then actually finding those products that are like no, this says it's vegan and then looking at what that symbol means and seeing it's no animal ingredients no animal testing, no GMOs, no processes, enzymes, management of cross contamination, all of that sort of work being done behind the scenes. You go right. Okay. Yeah, I don't need to read a big long ingredient list unless I have you know, an allergy or, or something that I specifically don't want but I no longer have to remember ie numbers, or have that app that tells me if the numbers plant based on I don't have to have you know, I don't have to keep calm in my head or confuse that with another another chemical term I don't know the meaning of and being able to just look out for something that's from a third party because I think that's the that's the real important part, I guess of the trademark is you know, anyone can make make a claim because there's no legal definition of vegan so anyone could technically do it without any backlash at the moment even though obviously, it is a veganism as a protect is protected and British law under the Equality Act. There's very little against businesses who We'll just say yeah, it's vegan, no worries. You know, which there are some really good examples of businesses receiving backlash for saying that something's vegan or plant based and it not being because you know, it's cooked on the same grill or it's fried in the same fryer as, as meat, etc. and be unable to just know that that something that not only I was supporting as a member of the Vegan Society, but the like, it's so

easy to just be like, Okay, I can, you know, even now I think my I've got a 10 year old niece, and my sister in law has mentioned, they're not vegan, but when I come for dinner, she sends her around their local supermarket to round up the things that have that symbol on because they know that I can have that, right. And then she gets to pick from that, what, what I'm going to have for dinner, and just that kind of like ease of ease of process and being able to come into that and not only like talk to businesses about the impact that that has on vegans, because some companies are just like, Yeah, we were just never we don't put it on the pack. We just we just make up our own symbol, it's fine. Which, like to us, that doesn't make any sense, because that's what we're used to looking for. But to somebody who doesn't understand veganism. Yeah. And or the process of like, looking for something that's vegan for you to eat like to them. They're just like, oh, this is just like, you know, registering for an award. The thing that we've done, but we've not thought about it, right, and just being able to talk to businesses and

remind them of the importance of the impact of having the trademark and knowing the reassurance that it gives to people is just like, it's just so exciting for me and it's so fun and hearing new businesses come on board or hearing people decide that they're, you know, they're coming out with press releases or some great examples like Wagamama has 50% of the menu being plant based of which most is registered with us. Burger King saying that they're going to make 50% of the menu by 2027. I want to say body shops saying the whole range is going to be vegan by 2023. Like these are all just so they're huge household names and just hearing the impact that you know, Veganuary the Vegan Society have had on that journey for people just feeling like it's mainstream is just so so fun. Like I say like for me I my journey was like, I don't feel like I'm part of the mainstream I feel like I'm this person on the side who feels very right about what I'm doing but nobody seems to hear what I'm saying to like, you know, fast forward just for years and so many people are like there's a new Tom now this flexitarian right, there's plant based Mondays or whatever it is meat free Mondays and TV ads from VIOLIFE and corn just running, you know, primetime television on ITV. With with you know, big celebrity sponsorships like it's just such a small period of time but such a huge leap and I think you know, those two charities have had such an impact on especially the British, the yen community right.

Jim Moore 28:13

This episode of the bloody vegans podcast is brought to you by VEG 1 from The Vegan Society. VEG 1 is the nutritional vitamin and mineral supplement designed for vegans by vegans launched back in 2005 and rebranded in 2021 with a fantastic new plastic free package. VEG 1 provides nutritional support alongside a healthy and balanced vegan diet, all for an affordable price with a six month supply available for just 12 pounds 70 VEG 1 will cost you little over two pounds a month and offers EU nutrient reference values or NRVs of vitamin B 12, D3, iodine, Selenium B2, B6 and folic acid. VEG 1 is chewable, it's affordable and reliable. You can take it once a day. It's available in fantastic orange and black current flavours super easy and convenient, completely plastic free, so why not head over to vegansociety.com Search for VEG 1 and take your next healthy steps into the world of veganism. What's the range of conversations like, I'm fascinated by that, you know, when you go and speak to different businesses, and it sounds like it's often a quite an educational conversation. Perhaps they don't really understand, like you say the weight that having having a vegan trademark on something carries just don't really understand who they're talking to. And they're talking to vegans. What is the range of conversation sound like, you know, from the you know, without dishing any names or anything but yeah, companies that one end of the scale to the other, like Where where are companies are.

Ericka Durgahee 29:55

Like we'd have such a range, right. So the V and trademark registers Anyone with a product so that could be a startup that wants to get certified right from the beginning, or small one person business, right through to like, say like the global brands like body shop, Burger King. And for a lot of companies, like a lot of our conversations, then range, especially within marketing context from like, Hey, can you give me a social media post? To? You know, because in their mind, it's like, well, you have more followers than us. Hopefully, that will get us some sales. There's some support there from your company, which, you know, we do try our best. But we have over 58,000 products, if we I think if we posted every product in a year, we would be posting one every few seconds. Which, of course, anyone who manages social media knows that that's not humanly possible, but the the like, there's the people right at that, and they're like, We, you know, we've got the trademark, we know what it means. We just need some support, get out there to people who are like, somewhere in the middle that kind of go in, okay, I don't really understand media, I don't know, who to talk to, I don't know, what are vegan publications, I don't know, you know, I don't know how to write a press release, because I am one or two person business. And our job was to develop this product, not to promote it, right. And like that some support that we also provide as well. So we've got the lovely Francine in our press and media team who will sometimes help write some, some PRs and get people on the BBC, we'll get people on Channel Four, to talk about their products. And then like you say, we've got the other end of the spectrum, which is people just go in, can you just come and talk to our company and tell us about what vegan is because we do that we provide workshops to supermarkets and big chains and large companies, sometimes even before their trademark holders to help that company understand. And for some of our companies, they will tell us quite openly, you know, this is a trial, the heads of aren't vegan, they don't care about it. I've suggested it, I'm fighting for it, because I think that it's a good market to move into. And they're saying if this fails, we're not picking that back up again. And so I need you to help me make this successful. And educate me on what that means. And lo and behold, it launches and they call us up a week later. And they're like, great, so yeah, we've had signed off to extend the range, it's gonna come back as permanent, or you know, anything from that. But there's also like a real a real chunk of businesses who, like, when I talk to them, I'm not getting the vibe that they're just like listening to demand, obviously, that demand is there. Businesses work on supply and demand. So they will be working towards that. But there's a real like, passion project, you will see vegans weaved in and out of that company. There are some partner companies that we work with, who maybe can't register a product, but they'll maybe help some of our businesses in some way. And there's, you know, there'll be a vegan in there maybe. Or someone who maybe just cares about sustainability and sees vegan as a great area within that, like spectrum. So a lot of the people that we work with, like head of sustainability is for companies. And then sometimes we have people tell us that openly their CEO has just decided that veganism is a thing that they need to do now, and that they need to get on board. We've had companies like, be like, so the CEO thinks that we should launch this product, what do you think about developing that? And like, that's also quite fun, because then actually, no, we think that it should be this, this is what the vegans are missing out on. And then sometimes they need for product advice here, which is quite fun. Wow. But yeah, and just like, the, the, the lovely thing about the Vegan Society, right, is that it's so like, sort of centre or to the, to the movement. So we know, lots of publications, we know lots of names of other companies that will work together. And, you know, activists are ambassadors and influences that we can then share with these companies so that they will start working together and, you know, it grows the

community, but it also helps that brand, understand that we're like a really open and accepting community that wants to work with these people and, you know, continue, hopefully to grow. What is, you know, already thriving vegan market across as many industries as we can, right?

Jim Moore 34:37

It must feel pretty rewarding when you get a big product or a big company to sign on, or perhaps even change your range or from the back of a conversation that you might have had a year ago, and then you eventually see that product, you know, on the on the shelf and so on. How does that feel?

Ericka Durgahee 34:55

Yeah, it's it's, you know what it's like, obviously, it's not just as Not just me, like there is a whole team of us the majority, I think of the staff now, at the Vegan Society work for the trademark because of how many checkers, we need to make sure those ingredients and things will be right. But the work that they do is, you know, we've nearly lost clients because of secret recipes. And therefore they don't want to tell us what ingredients they have, which makes it difficult to check. When actually we're like, we don't need to know percentages, we just need to know what's there we are on nondisclosure agreements, we will not randomly publish ingredients anywhere. We just need to know for our for our sake, and we've, you know, the work that the team have done to then bring that company back on board. Like you say, the the joy of speaking to someone, and then a year later, hearing them come back has happened to us for a few clients, even in the short time that I've been there. And we have, there's a person in my team, as part of our like sales drive, we go out and talk to businesses, of course. And there's a person in my team who does mock up bits of artwork. So when we're on a call with a client can't do it for all of them. But for some clients, we will fake put the trademark on the front of their pack and superimpose it and be like, This is what it could look like what do you think, you know, almost like a hair, please try it on kind of sales technique. And it's just so cute to like, see, not only that piece of artwork get really great feedback, because they're like, oh, wow, yeah, that looks really great. Like, we'd love to do that. But then actually seeing it in real life come back, because like it's a lesson in how to not use misuse, the misuse of the logo and where, where great placement could be and hearing seeing them do that. But also, like there's some, there's some brands that have like gone out on a whim with us, right? So like newlook is a great example. They're the fashion world doesn't need certifications in a lot of instances, right? Like food is so regulated. People have to, for the most part, anyway have to disclose a lot of their ingredients and things. So there's a lot more transparency there. But in fashion, you get that like weird label that just has like a diamond shape and is like other materials. That's all you need to know is in here, right? And there's no, there's no like onus on businesses that much really to do that. And newlook was one of the first sort of big, high street brands that came to work with the vegan side after obviously a lot of calls about why it would be good to move their accessories and their shoes over to a vegan supply chain. And even with working with us, I think they they learn how you know, as a business have been running for over 100 years, how complicated their supply chain had gotten, because of how many questions we had about their supply chain, which then just led them to go, why don't we just make everything vegan. And then we just have one, one line where we're not getting confused and makes our lives easier as a business right? And then that kind of like started a chain with them. That was right, well, we're going to switch all of our accessories and bags and shoes over to being vegan by I think it

was 2024 was their was their statement. And just all of that came from like conversations within our company, which is just so somebody that I you know, back when I was a teenager, I was a retail supervisor at new look. So it's like a weird circle to then come in and see them, you know, just being so open in an environment that doesn't have that much consumer demand just yet, but they're setting the standard. So that that begins, right. Like, that's so cool.

Jim Moore 38:35

That's fascinating to me, because the cynical view that I'd heard or thought or maybe even maybe even sort of thought about myself sometimes from a company say like, won't say New Look specifically but from set take a take a clothing company that's that is maybe they sell like things like handbags. And if they're at the lower end, I think my cynical brain said, Well, those weren't ever leather. They've just figured out a way to, to sort of sell them as such. But it's fascinating to me that actually no, it's not necessarily like that they've they've had to have their supply chain scrutinised to a point where there was actually some changes to be made within that. Yeah,

Ericka Durgahee 39:17

of course. And what's so fascinating about the fashion world, like I say, because it's not massively regulated, like a lot of the cheap, I guess the cheap alternatives to leather. Prior to you know, the big boom of the last few years where we've got apples and cactuses, and pineapples all contributing to the alternative labour community. It was pu right, it was it was Pu and PVC. And so to us, it's like well, that's plastic, that's fine. But actually, one of the like, big misconceptions is that for a lot of companies without even knowing this, the supplier and the factory would spray a fine layer of leather over the top so that it looked more premium and over a plastic over pu right. So like, yeah, the, the idea being that they're using way less leather, they've obviously turned it into a liquid, which I don't want to know how that process has occurred. But the dots become a thing to make something cheap look expensive. And that process has just become so simple that that happens, right? And I'm not saying that that's what happened to newlook. It's just a very common NOVA is the thing about that ingredient, right? And then what can happen is even if you're in a product line in a factory that's doing that, and you're saying, No, I don't want that, like spray of leather, that particle is now floating in the air, because it's not just a thick, unfortunate bit of skin. It's like a piece of floating moisture, right? And so yeah, there's then been companies that have like, done there. Now we've got like, even lab tests are like registered with the trademark as vegan alternatives. And we've got a couple of companies now on board who do actual DNA tests of fashion materials and ingredients that go into the making of like shoes and clothes and bags, that can even find if that thing began as DNA that was an animal, which, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing that people thought to do these things in the first place. But now we're getting to the point where there's so many, you know, somebody has now thought that the pineapple and banana skins are useful, which is way more advantageous to us than raising a cow for some reason. So I mean, like, why did we not think of the pineapples? And the banana skins being all across the floor when we were harvesting bananas? Why did we think I know let's keep raising animals. But at least

Jim Moore 41:52
from a practical point of view, I mean, a banana is a lot easier to wrangle. Yeah, exactly. Show

from a practical point of view, I mean, a banana is a lot easier to wrangle. Yeah, exactly. Show

Ericka Durgahee 42:07

someone somewhere found it. Like there are so many things that we find that are like unusual, so like, you know, the like red food colouring. I think it's e 120, which is kamin comes from raising bugs under sunlight underneath cactuses, and then squishing those blood, those bugs so that you get that blood. Like, why was that a thing that somebody thought to do over you know, smashing up a carrot, or a beetroot that naturally squeezes out red colour, like, I just that bit of the world is confusing to me. But the lovely news is that we're so much further along now to like, not only finding out that these are practices, but also helping businesses move away from them. And the, you know, again, with that supply and demand piece, the bit in the background is if the suppliers get more demand for vegan alternatives, those alternatives get cheaper over time, because they're buying more of them, and they're producing more of them. And then hopefully, the the meat and alternative into the you know, that industry reduces and therefore has to charge higher and then they naturally move away. And, you know, one day governments will stop subsidising that as well, which will of course make it more expensive, but like that whole, like cycle just that was just one industry. Of course, like when you think of the cosmetics industry as another example that I think the statistic is something like 95% of all animal tests are irrelevant, because when you move them to human trials, we are so different in DNA that it's irrelevant, right. And yet people just continue to, to do those to do those. But like I say, like, even having like lab tests, and companies that are like either were willing to work with humans and humans are willing to work with us to just do the tests. Or we've got one company registered who use papaya enzymes to do cosmetic testing, which is magical to me.

Jim Moore 44:14
How does that work? Oh, is that is that? Is that a scientific question too far?

Ericka Durgahee 44:18
Yeah, I think you've taken me one step too far.

Jim Moore 44:24
I'm gonna go find out though, cuz that's crazy.

Ericka Durgahee 44:27

Yeah. Yeah, papaya extract, I think there's a potato involved. There's a good few bunch of vegetables and those enzymes that ultimately I think the whole process on this particular test that I'm talking about is there's a label on cosmetics, you know, the little tiny pot that's got a number above it with an M. So it's like a little tiny cosmetics. But what that is is a specific test that happens to tell you how long that product has been estimated to be good at before potentially harmful bacteria. I can get into it right? So if it says 12 M, once you've opened it, it's

me is doesn't make any there's no sense to it on any level, not even a very practical sense.

supposed to be okay for 12 months. Whether you choose to listen to that or not is your own prerogative, but obviously that requires a test which usually happens on animal cells, where they put the product on an animal cell, they will then introduce the bacteria and see how long the preservatives last in terms of like keeping that bacteria out, right? Because obviously, we don't want to put creams on and the harmful bacteria also get into our skin right? So it does make sense, but this company have created an alternative using papaya enzymes to do those tests, which for some reason works, and I'm very much here for that.

Jim Moore 45:44

But in my mind here, okay, this is great. Okay, I have another I have another if you don't mind, I don't want to be too like the vegan Paxman here but I've got another cynical point of view. From the that I've heard in the vegan community that I'd like to put to you.

Ericka Durgahee 46:01
Can we please rename you the vegan Paxman? Because I love that?

Jim Moore 46:05

I'm not I've, if you listen to any of the rest of my episodes, I'm certainly not direct enough for that. I'm a very gentle version of it. I can't think of a more gentle interviewer now, but the very much is more like vegan Gardener's World or something. As much more.

Ericka Durgahee 46:23
I mean, I have segued you to banana leaves and papaya enzyme. So

Jim Moore 46:28

yeah, me right, right up my street. But yeah, so that there's the cynical point of view, January. Veganuary brings a lot of companies to the to the sort of vegan party if you like, and a lot of them disappear again in February, you mentioned Stoptober earlier and this kind of thing. And many folks within this sort of community will say big companies are just cashing in on this vegan pound, actually, it doesn't move the needle in terms of veganism overall, it's almost treated like a diet for a month, and then they'll move on. And actually, some of these big companies end up selling more animal based products because, you know, they brought their vegan mates brought another five people in to the restaurant or to the whatever shop whatever. A viewpoint, not necessarily, you know, not endorsed by the bloody vegans podcast, necessarily. But, in my darker moments might be I've thought like that. But truth be told, I probably flip flop sometimes and feel a bit like that sometimes. I'd love to get your perspective on it. Like I say, not wishing to be to vegan Paxman(y).

Ericka Durgahee 47:38

Yeah, of course, I think the initial statement is, you know, everyone's free currently to make a choice, right. So if you think that a company is ethically cheating you greenwashing has worst practice behind the scenes, but is offering you a vegan product, and you disagree with every other ethical practice that they have, you don't have to buy that product, right? Like, we still have a choice with our money. And the whole environment of veganism is that we are making a choice with our money already in choosing to spend it like you say on the vegan pound as opposed to any other. So first and foremost, you know, if someone has a strong view about it, you can ignore that company just as much. But from what we've noticed over like, you know, obviously, I'm going to be hugely biassed by the vegan trademark. But what I mean by that is like, there's some great examples of companies who yes, may have started in that way. But then went down a semi legitimate route by seeking out some vegan experts to talk to hearing that the you know, there's there's a lot more logic behind the scenes as to them as a company and why they need to move more into that world and and how to get there, right. And I'm going to throw out Krispy Kreme, sorry to put you under the bus gang. But hopefully this is a good enough story. You know, they launched last week, Veganuary with their vegan version of the OG which I think is a great starting point. And for Krispy Kreme that man, you know, they've got real great hype, they got excellent sales in January. But they didn't release it in their stores. They only did it online. So maybe it wasn't as good as they wanted it to be because you could only buy them in boxes of 12. And I don't know about you, but when you live on your own maybe boxes 12 Donuts isn't quite something that you can get through in a day, right? So they went away and then they spoke to the vegan trademark and in the background continue to develop more products. Maybe that went away. They then decided that OG was going to come back as a permanent feature. It is I think they started January thinking oh, we'll just do this because it's Veganuary. I'd like to say well, we'll just utilise on this but the sales were so good that they're like okay, well we'll keep that permanently. So you could always get the OG on online. And then they actually made the extra step of coming and talking to us over the Vegan Society, which meant registering with us developing three new donut flavours, obviously also registering the OG. And then you know, this January, it was okay, those products are going to be in stores. And for them, like, of all the donut sales, I was told yesterday, the the fudge brownie vegan option is like in the top five of all sales this month, which yes, that tells you a story of a company that has that may have started, I can't attest to whether they originally just developed to the OG because they wanted to make sales in January or not. But that's how it will have looked externally. But they've continued that path, right. And as a result, the vegan options are now so strong that they're contemplating them just being permanent options. And that then sparks a next story that says okay, how many more options do we have? We might have to take an option away, just like that new look story, right? Like we're gonna have to start taking some options away to account for this. And that piece of like, strong development right of this isn't just a January thing like look at Greg's eyes. They're not a trademark holder, but Greg's were another huge example of somebody that came on it was like actually, we think we can probably get a vegan sausage roll. I don't know about you, but it took me three months to try it because it was sold out every single time I went into a Gregg's and there was two in my shopping centre that was near me. And that has now developed into like a quarter of the shop like they have doughnuts as well that are now vegan, they their mince pies are always vegan at Christmas like and that part of like you say there is that part that says okay, but also Greg sell bacon and coffees and all of these other things that maybe we can't eat. But the idea is, if there is more demand from vegans, that balance should tip eventually. And we're in that lovely place now of 2022 where the scales have begun tipping, you know, the the vegan pound is so much stronger than 10 years ago, five years ago, even were for one industry. So the cosmetics industry, it pretty much just is the norm. Like most companies don't test on animals. Now most companies just make a vegan product, because it's the most accessible that they can make it

you know, and like that will have started from decades of work from The Body Shop from lash from all these big companies that are like considered fringe brands in the 90s that now we're just like in every shopping centre, just as mainstream as everyone else, and actually are making the competition then turn all of their products vegan. So when you look at a lot of cosmetics industry, I'm not saying like the big guys, you know, we still got a long way to go with the L'Oreal and the Procter and Gamble's and even Unilever. But the idea is that the more competition there is, the more that they're then going to switch over, right, and some of those positive stories, positive conversations are gonna businesses work on logic, like if you try and sell them something that won't sell and maybe in the 90s if we'd have tried this whole tactic that we're doing now, which is to reach out to businesses and talk to them about why the vegan consumer wants them, you know, in the 90s when that percentage of vegan consumers and knowledge of veganism was much, much lower that may have been that may have like fallen on deaf ears, but now we're at this amazing stage where like I say, like that new look, example is a fantastic one. What started as oh, we're just registers and bags and shoes turned into actually no, we're gonna change our whole, like, a whole ethos of our accessory range. What started with the body shop, we've been working with the body shop now for years, we did our announcement in 2021, because there was a first range but we've been working with them for years because we actually register trying to register every single ingredient with them, so they can just develop whatever they want. And it just be vegan. Right. And the the announcement has been that the they want their whole range to be vegan by 2023. The original conversation wasn't that they wanted a whole range to be vegan. But as they've reviewed their brand ethics and where they sit within their market, it just makes sense. And it's the same for a lot of cosmetics worlds right like so I think even lash now is at 95% They're like last ingredient is honey that's making you know that last little 5% before they tip over to being 100% Vegan brand. And that's all coming from like great conversations with companies that are saying, hey, like, yes, we're a certification service. Yes, we can look at the products that you have now. But actually, have you considered your wider market? And, yeah, marketing is, I mean, I'm obviously also gonna say this as a marketing manager, but marketing is just so important, right? So if your audience is an includes vegans and all your import your audiences, you know, everyone within this area, demographically, even if that was what you were doing, well, that's going to include vegans. And in the same way that companies have found great success in moving to having an entirely group gluten free factory, because they want to include as many people as they can. Well, the same is true for vegan, right, there's no point in having two factories one for gluten free and one not for you just, you just have the one that everyone can have right and make your pastor chocolate or whatever you want. And also then make it vegan. So I think the, the concepts the same, I think, like I say, I returned to, there will be some places where you have to consider where your ethics lie. But whether you are vegan or not, that remains true, you know. So like chocolate is an example of not just the big guys like the little guys as well, like, the ethics behind it is questionable. Coffee is the same tea is the same. But these are all things like Staples, everyone just buys. So you have to just consider where it is that you sit within that. Within that scale. You know, we've, we work with anyone that's quite a vegan product. So we accept some of the backlash that comes like you say, from the sceptics who are like we are They're just here to make some money off us? Well, if you didn't buy it, the line would disappear again. Yeah, so like, they're not just gonna keep making it, when it's that complicated to make

Jim Moore 56:32

the naive bit for me, and the bit that you've opened my mind to? And I haven't thought about it. I don't know why it is. It's obvious when you think about it. But is the fact that it's more of a

conversation than a certification process. in isolation. Yeah, the fact that you have a

conversation than a certification process. in isolation. Yeah, the fact that you have a conversation, that conversation might lead to a change of line up, like we talked about with, with New Look change of practices through the supply chain, it might even lead to a completely different product range or, or change of tack as a business. And that, I think, is the bit that I've I've found really fascinating because I think the naive, cynical part of me would have said, it will, if you're just certifying it then you know, we'll we'll we'll get whatever products, we can make it as cheap as possible bang with the vegan logo on it. And off we go. And learning that it's way more than that is is actually just it leaves me with a very reassurance, it's actually even more so than before. So I think you know, as vegan logos go is that it's obviously the one that I think all of us trust the most is that it's the one like I say we we've trained our brains to look out from across a supermarket aisle, but just understanding a little bit of beneath that I think is so is so vital. So I thank you for that. What I have done though, in the process of being so fascinated by this is not talk to him again. So. So I want to just, I'm conscious of time because we we've we've chatted away, and it's been absolutely lovely and mind blowing. But I do want to get back to a Veganuary question if that's ok just to sort of begin to take us home, which was, you know, if you if you're advising somebody who's new into the community now or perhaps, you know, you had your time again, is there some is there an area that you would look at differently, perhaps an area you'd think about earlier on in your journey, or you'd advise somebody to?

Ericka Durgahee 58:29

Yeah, like I say, I think your like baby steps are, like, certainly important. Like I went from vegetarian. Like I changed all of my cosmetics, household cleaning, laundry, all of that stuff long before I went vegan because I was like actually, the cruelty free aspect is my next level. Like I don't want to support companies that are testing on animals. So I'd already made quite a big transition before I got there. Bye bye. Say like the, like, pull out like I have a lot of conversations with people who aren't vegan who say I would be vegan for everything but Right. And because of that, but they're like, but then I'm not vegan at all. And for me, I'm like, try that. Think about what you're like Bart is think about Is it chocolate? Is it cheese? Is it milk? Is it this and try being vegan for the day for everything but that and see how you feel about it. Right? And I feel like that's accidentally the journey that I sort of went on, right? Like I cut out all the things I didn't like anyway, I didn't like milk. I didn't like eggs, but I did make a lot of cakes. So you know it was that I've still got so much baking equipment in my kitchen and now there are so many alternative things that I use apple cider vinegar is like on a whole shelf because that makes up so much of my baking right? And like like I say like just just try that or just tries rather than thinking of is there an alternative to bacon that I can have? cuz I think that was the thing for me, right? So you're so ingrained in I think if I'm talking about food, because I think that that's the biggest hurdle. Yeah, you're so ingrained in what the like, plate is

supposed to look like in that it's in like thirds, because that's what the like UK Government has told you, you should be and you've, your brain is like, there must be like veggies on a third and like protein on a third and general carbohydrates on a third, like, when you actually start looking into nutrition, you realise that That's complete nonsense, right? And most veggies are also carbs, but they're also all these other vitamins. And no one food is just one nutrient, right? Like, so my advice is like 100%, like break away from what that plate is supposed to look like. And if that means throwing lots of things in a pan with some sauce on top, and putting that on a plate, well, then, that's what you're going to be doing right like and that is why I do a lot of the time when I'm cooking. And you know, I think like, I enjoy cooking, like I enjoy being in the kitchen and baking and cooking. So I enjoy experimenting with flavours there are so many more flavours within the vegan world because you're trying all these different fruits and

veggies and spices and herbes and lovely things that you wouldn't normally be trying but that's from my perspective of I like cooking, right? If you don't like cooking, there are loads of alternatives now that are available, but I've like I say like in my head, I think just just break away from that idea of you must have a protein on your plate, you must have a carb on your plate, you must have then some sort of veggie colour on your plate like ignore all of that just put together things that make sense to you. So if that means throwing some grains in with a load of veggies, and some mushrooms, then so be it. There'll be protein in there, they'll be carbs in there, there'll be other nutrients in there you'll get them but that I think is probably my main like if I could do it differently, I probably would have been better at doing it fine I've realised that earlier

Jim Moore 1:02:10

well that's that's the journey I guess. But sound advice I love that Ericka it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you I could I could chat to you about big and trademarks in the commerce of it and the marketing of it for hours but respectful of your time so let you go but it's been an absolute pleasure and hopefully this picture again so yeah,

Ericka Durgahee 1:02:29 thank you so much.

Jim Moore 1:02:37

James Moore

Veganuary stories - Ericka Durgahee, Marketing Manager with The Vegan Society

Zero Waste Path

Veganuary Stories - Vegan Chef School Graduate and former Veganuary partipcant Jules Fourey-Jones