Maggie Ortlieb
Maggie Ortlieb
Sat, 7/10 2:07PM • 47:26
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
vegan, people, felt, vegetarian, restaurants, midwest, veganism, dairy, grew, community, products, companies, los angeles, point, eating, big, la, buy, animals, new zealand
SPEAKERS
Jim Moore, Maggie Ortlieb
Jim Moore 00:15
Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way, a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding and hopefully yours. Of all things plant centric, and this week is no different. I'm joined by Maggie Gottlieb, the founder of ledge out magazine. HR magazine is a la based but found all across America magazine that was originally digital and has moved into the kind of physical medium to available in places like Whole Foods over in the states with big plans for for world domination is my game I will chat about later But without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Maggie Gottlieb we go so Mikey it'd be awesome to get started with a little bit of your personal journey into the world of veganism was kind of brought you here.
Maggie Ortlieb 01:30
Yeah, so it's been quite a few years in the making. I went vegan nine years ago, the summer actually. But it started with me going vegetarian when I was 12 years old. I was a kid growing up in the Midwest in Michigan, and had a love for animals would always ask my mom at the McDonald's drive thru you know what animal is this? What animals is as I would like before I bite into my sandwich or my chicken nuggets, and she'd always tell me and she said she felt she felt a little bit guilty about that as well. And so then shortly after my cousin was vegetarian, I went down to visit her one summer and she kind of converted me the old school way of guilting people into doing it. Very PETA activists but it worked on me and so I went vegetarian, never looked back then my mom actually went at first you know, my parents freaked out and then eventually my mom went vegan and was a writer was researching. So she kind of convinced me to give up the dairy I was still doing if it was mixed into a cake or mixed into something but so yeah, nine years ago I went to New Zealand state on a dairy farm firsthand saw that whole process I even like milk the cows and it was just devastating to see you know those animals in so much pain so that's what started my vegan journey. But then after you know, I realised the health benefits and the environmental impact and all of the extra good stuff
Jim Moore 03:01
I'm really fascinated by and forgive my night my naive perception of of geography in in America but I'm really fascinated by growing up in the Midwest and obviously like you had a very supportive family and so on. But what was what was your experiences like it kind of you know, school in the in the town that you lived in the wider culture was, was being even vegetarian quite quite strange move pi other people's perceptions at that time, or was it quite accepted?
Maggie Ortlieb 03:32
It was very strange. I think I was probably the only vegetarian in my school. And it was not widely accepted. People didn't even know what it meant. They especially you know, veganism was so I remember when my mom first went vegan A few years after I went vegetarian, and we would go to a restaurant and she would even say the word and the waiter just looked total. They had no idea what she was talking about. So then she had to say, okay, you know, I can't do dairy and they say, Oh, you can do a potato over to his butter on it. You know, it's like, we had to explain exactly. So it was totally different than Los Angeles is now and even the Midwest. Even Michigan has much better be vegan options than they did when I was a kid. Especially like, yeah, there weren't even vegetarian options when you went to restaurant little and vegan options. But now there's just so much but it's culturally so different from the two coasts, the Midwest is very, I love it. It's great. The people are nice, but it's kind of behind. It's not as progressive as the two coasts.
Jim Moore 04:30
Well, what led you to New Zealand? Was this just a bit of you know, wanderlust, wanting to get out there and again, see the world? Yeah,
Maggie Ortlieb 04:37
so I was in college and one summer I just I had never travelled abroad before I travelled a lot. I've done a lot of travelling around the US. And I wanted to take a trip by myself. I had just broken up with a boyfriend needed to go see the world and decided New Zealand Was it because I met you know, as any college kid would do. I met a family on the internet and decided I would go watch their children for a summer There's no pair. And my dad was totally freaked out by the idea he did not want me to go stay with some someone I'd never met. But I went had the time. My life is amazing. I still talk to the family to this day, but they were dairy farmers. And that's how they made their money. And unlike, you know, not unlike a huge amount of people in New Zealand who are dairy farmers, it's one of their, you know, major industries there. And it was a great experience. They definitely, you know, they definitely treat their animals better in New Zealand than they do in the US. Us. There's just a factory farm factory from factory farm there. I mean, there's no like humane way to do it. But regardless that was in a country that like treats their animals better and it was still so tragic for me to experience
Jim Moore 05:44
was that you know, what point did you because you were vegetarian at this point as a kid so you were still kind of consuming dairy. I'm fascinated by the the mo was there like a moment. Do you remember that being like a pivotal point where you were there in New Zealand thinking on it. This isn't what I thought there he was.
Maggie Ortlieb 06:05
Yes, it was when I was actually because when I was in the house watching the kids, like you know, and we would have breakfast in the milk and everything. It was fine. But it was actually at the dairy farm at 5am with like my coveralls and gumboots and it was freezing cold. And I was hooking these cows up to machinery that was like freezing. They were cold, I was cold, they were infected, they were kicking, they were pooping everywhere. They were crying. And then at the end of the day, well I also saw the milk actually getting processed afterwards which just did not look appetising to me at all. And then at the end of the day, this truck came and I remember I was there with like all these other kids from around the world who were like working on the farm and the this truck came and hauled away the cows that were deemed no longer you know, like good to make dairies. So they just went and took them away and killed them, they would put an X on them and took them away and killed them. And after seeing that, I remember that moment, I was like, I cannot support this any longer. So I went back to the house that night, and I told my host mom, I'm vegan now. And she was she was like, the most supportive because I feel like if anyone told me that and I was, you know, dairy farmers wife, I would have been like, no, like you're saying, you have to drink the milk, you know, but she was like, great, like, I'll get you soy milk at the store. She was so nice. But she kept buying skim milk on accident. And so from that point on, I just drink skim milk for the rest of the trip because I didn't want to, I didn't want to hurt her feelings. But when I got back to the US, I weren't completely vegan. So it was it was really firsthand seeing that myself. Because I think it's easy to separate when you're, you know, at your house eating a bowl of cereal, you don't think about the animals. But when you're actually doing the work I mean, I assume people can make a living off of it. After a while they just get used to it and that's how it is but I think for me who wasn't used to that seeing that firsthand was very eye opening this
Jim Moore 08:06
as you were telling that story then I was sort of taken back to a conversation I had a while back with a with a director called Alex Lockwood. He directed a film called 73 cows is a short film about a dairy farmer who actually switched to be farming and then eventually switched to veganism and Avi ganic farm, because he felt there was more cruelty in dairy than there was in in beef farming. And then obviously, he moved away from all of it. Do you think there was any? Because you mentioned obviously the the the farmers there kind of were receptive to going vegan? Do you think there was any sense in their minds that they, they kind of knew something it wasn't, they could understand why someone wouldn't like this.
Maggie Ortlieb 08:53
I feel like they had to understand I mean, they definitely understood vegetarianism, because I was vegetarian at the time when I came to stay with them. And I their one of their daughters was vegetarian. And you know, she was like, 12 years old. So same thing she she was going vegetarian about the age I went vegetarian. So I think they understood that meat was cool. And I think they also probably understood that dairy wasn't much better or could be worse. But they had to make a living, you know, it's like these weren't wealthy people. They were trying to make ends meet. And so I think sometimes people don't have another option because that's just their job. That's what they've always done. That's, you know, and it's really cool to hear those stories, like you said, like where the farmers turn into vegan farms and produce other types of crops and things like that. But for people to do that, I think it's still pretty rare. I would love to see more of it. I think people need more resources and different types of things to help them help coach them going that direction. But yeah, I don't know if anyone like actually loves the idea of dairy for I'm sure I'm sure people do. But I think it's like I said it's a job probably.
Jim Moore 10:08
Yeah, I think I think you're probably right. It feels it probably feels like a sort of necessary evil or kind of, you know, at worst, a necessary evil and probably at best to them. Just this is the way we've always done it, you know?
Maggie Ortlieb 10:20
Exactly.
Jim Moore 10:21
At what point did you from there, then you came back to? Did you go straight back to LA? Did you go back to the Midwest and then move to LA where At what point did la come into your life?
Maggie Ortlieb 10:31
Yeah. So I went back to the Midwest. I was going to Michigan State University. So I was I went to college in Michigan. And then when I graduated, I had always wanted to move to California. I had been here, you know, on vacation growing up as a kid, and I wanted to live somewhere warm. Michigan, winters are very cold. It's not an ideal climate to live in. I don't know how I did it for like 24 years. But I always wanted to move to California. I after graduating college, I moved back in with my parents for about a year, save some money did AmeriCorps, which is like full time volunteering for the government. Giving back so I worked for a nonprofit in actually in in a couple elementary schools and I kind of played into my journey of like wanting to help people go vegan because I saw the horrible foods that were served in elementary schools. And then after I finished that year of AmeriCorps, I moved out to Los Angeles. And I've been here for about seven years now.
Jim Moore 11:30
And what was your experience moving out there as a, as a vegetarian who's turned to veganism and so on was was it poles apart from the Midwest in New Zealand or take it?
Maggie Ortlieb 11:40
It was it's interesting, because I didn't actually realise that Los Angeles was kind of like the vegan capital of the US until I got out here. So I had always heard you know, great things about California and the food out here, but I never really had an intention of moving to Los Angeles. It just is where I landed, my ex boyfriends job was here, or he got a job here. And so we ended up in Los Angeles, but I never had my sights on La specifically. But it was a blessing because after we moved here I started discovering Oh, they have fully vegan restaurants here they have all these options and non vegan restaurants for vegans, and so there was just so much to explore that I wasn't used to my hometown still doesn't have a fully vegan restaurant so it's just I mean my neighbourhood now probably has 10 you know it's just really cool it's so different
Jim Moore 12:30
Did you find a Tiki did but did you find a community of people there that sort of welcomed you in? Was was there a vegan community feel like that you that you met?
Maggie Ortlieb 12:40
Oh yeah, definitely a vegan community and when I shortly after I got here I started going to different vegan events that would happen they were they're a lot smaller than they are now the community was smaller, which is cool to see have seen the community grow over the years. But yeah, it was it was awesome because I went to these events and there were people that you didn't even have to explain yourself to. I was used to hang out with people who might my close friends knew you know that I was vegan and they would accommodate but they would always want to go to traditional restaurants and then I'd have to find the salad or french fries or something so it was nice to just be around people who either know or think about what you're eating you have to explain yourself they get it and meet some new friends I mean is the community is very welcoming. In Los Angeles and I've heard different things about different cities but LA is vegan community is amazing. And that's kind of what led me to starting my magazine
Jim Moore 13:39
Yes. Tell us about that. So what was what sort of led to it What was the kind of the the initial seed of inspiration for a magazine?
Maggie Ortlieb 13:47
Yes, so So as I said, when I when I first got to Los Angeles I was going to events, I was looking for the best restaurants but I was having trouble at the same time so there were amazing resources like happy cow which is international foods listings, you know, restaurant directory, but things like Yelp or eater or LA Weekly these different publications or you know, websites and tools that we had to look for restaurants or events. Were not vegan specific. So even if you type in vegan to Google, we weren't getting like a curated list and so it would send me to a restaurant that might not be the best in LA might just have some options. So I was like, okay, no one is doing this no one is curating this this needs to be a thing. Even even happy cow is great. I love it. But it wasn't like a cure it didn't tell me the best places to go right? It was like here's all the restaurants but I wanted to know if I go to this spot, what do I order? If I go to this spot? What do I order like I want to know the best and I think a lot of people want to know the best too because they don't want to waste their money. So that's why that's why I started I started a small blog. It was like I post it's like embarrassing to think about but I would like Personally write the article and post maybe like once a week or something like that. And then Instagram was super hot at the time, it would adjust. I feel like it had been maybe three years into it be. So it was like three years old maybe at that time. And so I started an Instagram, I had no idea what I was doing. But it just grew and grew and grew, it grew really fast. those first couple months. And I think it was because people also wanted this, they wanted to know, where they could eat, where they could find vegan options where they could go to events. And la didn't have something like this. So I really grew the Los Angeles page and grew the Los Angeles publication. And then when I got it to a point, I realised, okay, the rest of the country needs this as well. And so we started expanding, but it started as a digital publication, then we went print
Jim Moore 15:51
and it's kind of incredible. You've gone way beyond just food and restaurant recommendations, although that would have been an incredible resource on its own like you say, but you know, there's there's interviews and tips and lifestyle and there's so many different angles to it is was that a kind of always something you intended to do? Or was it always like in restaurants at the beginning, and that's just evolved over the course of time as you've got deeper into the kind of culture
Maggie Ortlieb 16:18
Yeah, it's funny because I don't think I ever intended to do anything like it's it's interesting because some people start a business and they have like a business plan. And they know exactly the vision of where they want it to go. I just started fulfilling this need and then as it grew and snowballed, I was like, Okay, well, people also want to know, like, what products are vegan? Well, you know, what clothing is vegan? There's so much more than just food to living a vegan lifestyle. And so people would ask us, and as I would get questions, I was like, Okay, well, we need to write about this, we need to cover this. And so we just, it just organically kind of evolved that way. And then we also would get like, you know, celebrities involved, athletes involved. Because I think when people see athletes and celebrities who were living plant based vegan lifestyle, it's more motivation for them. Because they can you know, they think, Oh, well, they can do it, I can do it. It's it's a bit influential. So we were now like a pop culture, lifestyle magazine as a whole, not just a food magazine.
Jim Moore 17:21
Have you felt more of? Sorry to go deep with this question, but I'm going to I'm going to go deeper has come to mind. So have you felt more of a pressure as it's expanded? Have you felt more of a pressure as it's expanded from restaurants lifestyle, and it's got it's got bigger and it's like you say a reference point for kind of culture? He can culture in so many different guises? Have you felt any sense of pressure to develop a very specific tone on certain subjects say, a voice on certain things? Have you felt there's probably more need for you to sort of step in editorially, then perhaps you did at the beginning, when it was kind of like, here's a great restaurant, I'm curious as to, you know, starting out from restaurants getting into kind of pop culture, all these different reference points, lifestyle, so on and so forth. the vegan community, from my experience anyway, has sort of disagreement within it about whether it should be single issue, whether it should be intersectional, these kind of different angles. And if you felt the need is sort of the founder of the magazine to sort of step in a little bit more editorially and develop more of a clear voice on some of those subjects. Or have you take or do you take more of the view that actually all these things exist and they all just need to be out there for people to kind of hear and decide
Maggie Ortlieb 18:45
Oh, definitely so so I think this is the direction you're going but so let's so last summer with the George Floyd protests across the country across the world and here in LA you know, Black Lives Matter was a huge hot topic and it still isn't any it's been for is racism in America and in the world. It's been an issue for ever. But we definitely took a stand on that I was like out at protest myself. We were partnering with different organisations, any anytime those those issues come up, and I think that that was the first thing that really taught me It made me grow as a founder because I feel like before that, I never took a stand on my business pro I my personal stuff. I've been outspoken since I was born, but like, on my business, I always was taught because I used to work for an accounting firm, and I was always taught, you know, separate politics from business and like don't, you know, don't take aside and bla bla bla bla bla and that was like always what I was taught, especially being from the Midwest, and then when the events happened last summer, I was like, No, this is wrong. And yes, we're vegan publication. But what's on brand for us is to speak up what's for what's right and so after that we started speak up speaking up on, you know, pretty much any issue and trying to support obviously like obviously, we we can post to social media all day but you know what, what else I kept thinking what else can we do to support different causes besides veganism because they're all related. And so we would do roundups and articles and coverage and just try to incorporate more people of colour more women owned businesses, and give give people the spotlight who typically don't get the spotlight in the vegan community. Because it can be, it can be pretty whitewashed. And so that's what I wanted to do with our publication. And I think the Black Lives Matter stuff last summer just really opened my eyes that we don't have to just talk about veganism, because you know, human rights, animal rights, poverty, all these different social issues are intertwined. And so I think it's just, it's not just like a good thing to do, but it's so necessary to do at this point.
Jim Moore 21:18
I completely agree. And and that's actually what I wanted…
Maggie Ortlieb 21:22
I hope that answered your question.
Jim Moore 21:25
Absolutely answered the question, because I think that's the, yeah, I wanted to touch on it. Because, you know, that that's certainly the viewpoint that I hold is that, you know, oppressions are interlinked, that you can't get away from that. It's, it's clear, you know, the, the sort of the, the hand that tips, the scales for, for one group, who are, who are kind of oppressed is often tipping the scales for every other group, whether it's non human animals, you know, the black community, LGBTQ plus communities, wherever you look, I think these oppressions are interlinked. I absolutely agree with that. But I have definitely, you know, in my limited experience as a sort of podcaster, if you like, encountered some folks who perhaps don't hold, excuse me, that don't hold the view that, that you know, us in the quote, unquote, vegan community should be talking about those kind of issues, or it's not relevant or these kinds of things. And so I think one of the things that I've always enjoyed personally about vedge out is that it's maintained the approachable nature that's made it successful, but has also not shied away from being clear on where it stands and whose voices it's it's platforming and amplifying. So I just wanted to ask the question from the point of view of the other founder, who, you know, because I like you started, when I started the podcast, they kind of didn't, and I feel bad that I didn't at the time, but when I look back, I think I came into this thinking, I'll just have some lovely chats with folks in the vegan community, so on and it'll be great. And this, that and the other. And then over the course of time, I felt far more responsibility to use that platform to talk about other things, you know, and, and make it clear where I stand. So I'm just intrigued from your point of view. Was there any? And I will turn this into a question. Sorry for my rambling musings. But was there any any pushback from people as as the tone perhaps started to change from badjao, as you became, you know, very sort of much more strident in your, your kind of tone?
Maggie Ortlieb 23:51
100%? And I think that's always you're always going to have the pushback, the people who disagree the haters, if you will, when you take a stand on anything, right? And but but those are the people I want in my community to be following us, right? Our page is is a safe space for everyone. And it's inclusive. So yeah, when we first started posting, I think like that first Black Lives Matter posts. Shortly after the George Floyd incident, after he was murdered, we had so many I mean, we had a lot of people obviously, agreeing with us agreeing with our stance, but we had a lot of people who've even followed us for a long time at that point, who were like I'm unfollowing This is a vegan page, you know, stop you know, stop talking politics, which I would argue that's not even politics, but you know, all of these comments, tonnes of them and I was like, You know what, we're losing a few followers but the I think the overall it is the people who it brings to you are like Even better, and those are the people I want following us anyway, I don't want the people who are, you know, racist or won't take a stand or whatever. And it just makes your brand stronger as a whole. And we obviously didn't do it for like the PR or to make our brand stronger. But I feel like for me personally, as a consumer, the brands I saw during that time, and like currently, who take stands on issues are the ones that I want to support. I don't, I don't really have an interest in supporting brands or companies who, you know, either don't take a stand at all, or take a stand and the opposite of the viewpoints that I have. So I think that's becoming a thing in general, with businesses and with consumers. I think people want that transparency. And if they don't, they demand that transparency. And if they don't have it, they get upset, because actually it was it happened, it all happened so fast. But I do remember we got the first message we got after George Floyd was killed, someone was like, I can't believe you're not taking a stance on this, I hadn't even heard it was like, right away, I hadn't even like heard about what happened. So I was like googling, trying to figure out and then like, no hesitation, we made a post. And then we started figuring out, you know, internally what we could do to help and to support the black community. But I think people definitely want that transparency. And they want to know that, you know, they're being supported that, that companies have their back. Because why would you, you know, as a black person, or as a gay person or whoever support a company that has doesn't have your interests in mind, it just doesn't make sense.
Jim Moore 26:44
Absolutely. couldn't agree with you more. As I just want to reverse a little bit actually. Because you know, just what you've talked about there as as having to learn grow as a as a founder in that last kind of, you know, 18 months. And I imagine that, you know, since you founded red out, there's been various touch points. What was your experience going into it because I had a passion. For me personally, if somebody said to me, you're going to found a very successful vegan magazine. I personally would be quite scared by that prospect and wouldn't necessarily feel like I could do it justice, I certainly could. And not in the way that you have was you Did you have a background in in, in kind of journalism in in writing of this nature? Or was this kind of a learned skill.
Maggie Ortlieb 27:39
So what kind of both so I went to school for advertising, Creative Advertising, and copywriting. And so my professional experience was in advertising marketing, which has definitely helped build a media company. But I, myself am not necessarily a writer. But I've been surrounded by writers my whole life, my mom's a writer. So that definitely helps. We had the experience to start. And but we like my mom, I brought on right away, she's kind of my co founder, but my managing editor and still is, to this day, she's amazing. And so we did have the experience. But all of the stuff that comes along with starting a company, that was all totally learned, I've never, you know, this is my first company. And I have always been crafty and entrepreneurial before I knew what the word meant, but my whole life, but I didn't, you know, I didn't know anything about how to do accounting, or how to do sales, or how to do all these other tasks that you have to do before you have the money to actually afford a team and you're just trying to do everything yourself. And you know, even things like being on a podcast, you know, I had never done that before starting out. So I think all of these things just come you just learn them as you go along. And then you throw you just kind of just jumping in the deep end, you learn them as you go. I think what has helped me is I think being a little neat, or sorry, being a little naive. Because looking back, like you said, the thought is terrifying. I would say no, like, Don't sign me up for that. But I was just jumped in, started doing things a little naive. And that's kind of what got me to where I am today. But everything has been a learning experience. And still is there things I'm taking on today, projects we're working on that I've never done before. I don't think it ever gets easier. But I think you get better and you you gain experience. So
Jim Moore 29:37
I can't imagine as well sort of learning in the public eye you talk there about it being you know, you talked to the beginning of the journey about it being quite, quite successful quite quickly. Was that in itself quite a scary process because I imagine you know, from my limited experience, when you're doing a podcast with the very beginning and there's not many people listening to it. You can't I feel like well, if I've made a couple of mistakes here and there, if people put in a couple of things out, that's fine. I can I can kind of live with that. But when success comes quickly, now what was what was that experience? Like kind of learning in public, if you like?
Maggie Ortlieb 30:13
Yeah, well, yeah, that's the interesting thing. Once we got on Instagram, because the blog that we had on our, you know, our website, no one was looking at, you know, my friend group and my mom. But once we got an Instagram, there were strangers who were looking at the page, which was, and it was, it was kind of it was it was a, it was a quick, you know, quick grow. And then it was kind of organically over time, it grew from there. But I had never had that many followers on social media myself. So I didn't know what that entailed. And at that point, I was posting like blurry camera phone, iPhone, avocado toast pictures that I was taking, you know, it was like, I was not a photographer. So I was just posting things, I would find it restaurants. And it was not the quality, like if I think we archived a lot of posts. But if you were to like scroll all the way through it, the evolution of photos, it just gets better. And so that was definitely I was like, wow, we really need to as we grow, I was like, we really need to like get better photos we need to get to team or user, there's all these things that I was like we need to, but I think the mistake that a lot of people make is they think they need all that stuff. before they start, I kind of started before I had all that stuff. And so I was making mistakes, I was making things better. But it was all kind of in the eyes of our audience and our followers. But our community that we had created was so cool, so supportive, we would try things, you know, we would do all sorts of things that we don't do today. But we will try different projects, different interactive, online events, things like that. And sometimes they totally flopped. But we just kept going and people loved it and supported it. And I'm forever thankful for our, you know, our early followers who got us to where we are now. So yeah,
Jim Moore 31:59
what's the story over the course of time that's kind of stuck in your mind, but one that you think, you know, that was the moment I really felt like, this is a successful publication and we were doing well. You know, well, I'm proud of that piece of journalism if you like was it was this was there one that stood out? Or was it was that quite an evolutionary process?
Maggie Ortlieb 32:19
There's not one there's not one article. I don't think that stood out. But the moment we got into Whole Foods Market nationwide. So now they're a distributor of ours the moment we got into Whole Foods I felt like and we got in right Oh, it was like on the first try. It wasn't like we had to continue You know, a lot of times, it's really hard to get to Whole Foods with any product. But a lot of times, it's like, multiple trials before they like will sell your product. It's a whole it's like college admissions. When we got into Whole Foods, I felt like okay, we have something here. This is something people want. grocery stores wanna consumers want it veganism is growing. And what's cool about our success is that it doesn't just represent like my success and veg out success, it represents the success of the vegan movement as a whole. And so it was like really cool to see the company grow because it just means more and more people are demanding vegan options. And I love to see that
Jim Moore 33:14
I was gonna ask you about about that, on that sort of note, the how we kind of gauge what our barometer is, for success within the vegan community, I sort of, I go back and forth with this a lot. And I have misgivings about you know, we've, you know, I don't know if this happened in the US, but there's, there's been a lot of talk recently about a vegan kick cap for made by by Nestle and so on. And, you know, some people would hold this up as, like this mark of success. And I sort of struggle with that as a as a, as a concept that what that particular product, I might be able to talk about a smaller business and so on. But I would love to get your insight because I think you're, you know, much, much deeper into this than, than I am a much closer your view on sort of veganism being commercialised, these new products coming out every day. How do you how do you feel about that?
Maggie Ortlieb 34:14
So I love it. Personally, Yes, I will. You know, personally, I like to support 100% V in small businesses first when I can. But I know that that's a privilege and that not everyone has access to 100% vegan restaurants or brands, or whatever it may be, or maybe the costs are too high. So just given the world we live in, like ideally I would love if everyone grew their own food and like, you know, didn't eat processed foods and it's like just this whole. It'd be amazing, right if that was the world we lived in. But I recognise especially being from the Midwest, that that's not how it is that's not the reality and we have to meet people where they are and Ideally, you know, people aren't aren't eating impossible whoppers from Burger King and vegan kitkats and sporting these companies and you know, eating processed foods all the time, but they're great transitional foods. And they're great products that I know, you know, my family in the Midwest, if they're at the store, they're not going to go to the health food market, they're going to the big box grocery store. And if they go to Costco, or Sam's Club, or one of these big grocery store chains, and there's a vegan version of a product they usually buy, they might pick it up and try it, they're not going to go out of their way to seek, you know, the specialty products. But if there's something in front of them at a grocery store, they might try it. And I know for me, that's what got me to try. vegetarian, is you know, Boca burgers at the time were the big thing. And they were sold at the regular grocery store. So and I remember getting like a veggie burger from Burger King, when I was a kid, they had a vegetarian veggie burger. And so those were the foods that really helped me transition before I knew about all these small, great brands. And so in addition to these large companies, and yes, I think a lot of corporations are evil, and that I wish they would have better practices, you know, for their employees and entry people better in general, right. But if we're looking at the large scale, these corporations who were adapting to the vegan movement, and coming out with plant based products, they just wanted, the corporation's just want to make money. So if people are gonna buy plant based products, they're gonna come up with plant based products, they're making money off of it. So if with that comes accessibility, these products will be available, distributed nationwide, or worldwide versus a small company usually can't get that type of distribution, as well as like marketing budgets driving around la beyond meat. Well, they're an all vegan company. But for instance, beyond me, or chobani, even who recently launched oat based products will have billboards, and they'll have TV commercials. And this is information in mainstream media that small companies can't afford to do. And while it's unfortunate, that's just the world we live in. So I think it does help with that bigger message of like plant base is happening, it's now and then it kind of helps people transition. And then if people you know, become more plant based, they'll discover more products. And then on the on the other side, what I mentioned earlier is accessibility not every. And price point, not every I live in a city with amazing vegan options. But even in my city, there are areas like South Central that doesn't have health food stores, it doesn't have fully vegan, a tonne of fully vegan restaurants. But they might have a Burger King, or they might have a corner store that has, you know, a vegan chip that or chip or snack or something that one of these big companies is putting out. And so I think we need to think about it from that perspective. And at the end of the day, if people are choosing a vegan option, versus a non vegan one, they're still saving an animal. And that's the whole point. But yeah, I it's it's a complex situation, because personally, I don't want to support those companies. But I know that we have to kind of look at it from other perspectives as well. And that I'm very privileged to be able to go to 100% vegan restaurants and buy from small companies online or buy from small companies locally and spend the extra money. But not everyone's able to do that.
Jim Moore 38:39
Yeah, like you say is incredibly complex issue. I think you've summed it up beautifully, far better than I could. So thank you. Thank you so much for that. We're moving on. Just Just thinking about that, that subject a little bit further. What do you think it's kind of incumbent upon us within this sort of, quote, unquote, vegan community to break down some of those? In some cases, there may be truths, but in some cases, some of the misnomers and the myths that veganism may be too expensive for people or maybe, you know, an option that they just can't they can't access. Do you think there is some steps that we we sort of in the vegan community needs to take stories, we need to amplify much more angles we need to talk about whether that be, you know, whole food plant based cooking or you know, I don't know, but do you think there is there is some action that we can all sort of take to amplify the right messages.
Maggie Ortlieb 39:39
There's definitely action we can take and I think that's what scares a lot of people off. I was just talking to my best friend about this. veganism as a, as a movement as a lifestyle doesn't seem achievable to most people I feel because, you know, they think well, I have to do all of this to be 100% began to, you know, and I just don't have the time or you know, they're single parents with kids or they have working a couple jobs and it's just, it doesn't seem like an achievable thing to do. So we need to make it more accessible and approachable. And we can do that in a variety of ways. But one for like, just an easy thing is instead of buying if you're trying to incorporate more fruits and vegetables, instead of buying fresh produce, which obviously is more ideal at a farmers market in LA that's like super expensive, or, you know, organic or whatever, just buy some frozen fruits and veggies, throw it in your freezer. Coming up with ways to make it easier for people to incorporate more plant based foods and not making it seem like you have to go 100% vegan, you know, if you can go as as much like as much plant based as you can go, that's amazing. And just meeting people where they are. And then making it known that while there are some great vegan versions of burgers and eggs, and all these animal products, those can be more expensive, because they're not subsidised by the government. But you don't have to eat those things, those can be a treat, and you can eat you know, things like peanut butter and frozen fruits and vegetables, and rice and beans and all these amazing foods that you can get pretty cheap at the grocery store. So education around that I think it's super necessary. But it's gonna take all of us, especially those who have a plant platform to spread that word because I was on a I was on a clubhouse chat. And someone who wasn't vegan asked the question about how can she incorporate more fruits and vegetables into her diet. And, you know, she This is someone who I think we sometimes forget with the best intentions, we sometimes forget how it is to not be vegan, because we've been doing it for so long, or we're so passionate about it. But we have to remember how you know how it is in her shoes. And people were suggesting, you know, grow your own food or shop farmer's markets. Because she The thing is, like produce, you know, goes back quickly. And so I suggested just buy frozen. And that is just a lot more achievable than this woman who's busy who's not trying to, you know, focus her full time energy on going vegan, can incorporate into her lifestyle, she's not going to grow her own food, you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe eventually she will. But at the beginning, we need to make it more accessible.
Jim Moore 42:40
I think you Sorry, right? We sometimes come at it from an angle of you know, this is all the quiet knowledge that I've got over X amount of years. And your transition points should be to get exactly where I am. Which, actually that's taken you years to get to so it would be completely unrealistic to I always think we forget what it was like the day before we went vegan, you know,
Maggie Ortlieb 43:06
100%. And yeah, when I first went vegetarian, I was eating mac and cheese, and like potato chips and Oreos. I wasn't eating, like I am now I probably wasn't even getting the nutrients I needed. You know. And so I think just being letting people be human and make mistakes, and just like live their lives. Instead of instead of saying you have to strive for this perfection, right? So progress over perfection of that.
Jim Moore 43:34
That's a great statement, we could start out with just that, really. So Maggie, I have one sort of final question for you, which is it would be remiss of me to ask, but where's where's the future of edge out? For you? You know, is there? Is there a particular kind of mission to move forward or just in the spirit of the entrepreneurial spirit that you've approached it so far? is it all about kind of evolution? And let's see where it goes.
Maggie Ortlieb 44:04
Yeah, I definitely think you know, we always have to keep, we always have to keep an open mind as like, you know, I feel like if I if I try to come up with a plan, and this is exactly what we're gonna do, it's not gonna end up well, I have to leave room for innovation and change. And that's also what what the pandemic taught me is like you can never predict the future so things now could look totally different than they do you know, a year from now. So so being flexible, but also you know, with some some direction and some some goals. I definitely want to do more pop culture, more celebrity people interviews, as well as expand into so so we're in the big cities in the US, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, people novedge out, but I want to reach more places. So I want to continue to expand in the US. And then hopefully Canada and the UK eventually, is my goal, but really just working on reach as well as content and putting out the best, best content we can for people. That's always the number one focus is with our readers in mind putting out the best, most timely content. So there's never a shortage of news, which is amazing. But I'd like to do more features on people and more features on lifestyle. And maybe travel now that we can travel again, so so some different things versus just just the food. I
Jim Moore 45:46
definitely think you and the team are creating some first class content and I can't wait till it's over in the UK. So more power to you all and a huge congratulations on what you've built. I'm in all of it. So thank you that thank you so much for your time, Maggie. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, and hopefully speaking to you again soon.
Maggie Ortlieb 46:06
Yeah, thank you so much, Jim. Thanks for having me on.