Heaven's Devils
Heaven's Devils
Sat, 5/8 1:25PM • 1:02:48
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
vegan, people, eating, club, nathan, podcast, forest, feel, football, game, world, meat, green, new york, vegan pizza, pound, fans, growing, pizza, rovers
SPEAKERS
Jim Moore, Nathan, Shyam
Jim Moore 00:16
Hello, my name is Jim This is my podcast that bloody vegans You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric. And this week is no different. This week is Episode 81. And I'm going to be chatting with the CO hosts of New York's leading forest green rovers, the vegan football club. For those who don't know, leading podcast. Why do two new yorkers have a podcast about forest green rovers? a vegan football club in the heart of rural Gloucestershire? Well, we're gonna find out I suppose. So we talk about that we talk about all things new york and veganism, crossing over into some political subjects as well. All kinds of different things. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me knights and Cheyenne from the heavens devils podcast.
01:39
I know I know a little bit of this story from you know, being a longtime listener of the podcast, etc. But it was the story
Shyam 01:45
The Coronation Street. Yeah, it would be.
01:49
It would be awesome. Just to hear the full How did this pan out?
Nathan 01:57
Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, longtime listener. We've only been around for how many months jump for four months. But if you've been there from the beginning, now that's we'll take that even three months at this point is a long time. But anyway, so yeah, so I, um, I've been a vegetarian for about seven years, six, no, six years, I think. Anyway, so how I got into I actually, it all started from a New Yorker magazine like article that I read, I think it was by Michael Pollan. I can't remember what the title of it was, but it was about the whole idea of compassionate consumption, which I never come across before I never even like honestly considered animals and animal rights or anything like that, before I grew up a meat eater. You know, and not just that, like every meal that they meet, like breakfast, lunch, dinner, like it's not a meal, if there's no meat, you know, in it. So I never even never crossed my mind the idea that we should not be you know, subjugating and using these animals for pleasure. And then I read that article, and I was like, wow, I just like hit me. And so I started doing a tonne of research, reading, watching videos, watching documentaries, listening to podcasts. And I was like, man, I got to stop eating meat altogether like this compassionate consumption. And that's not even that's you're still part of the problem if you're if you're doing any part of the consumption like it's still you know, it's still problematic there's no such thing I thought at the time is compassionate consumption. I just got to give it up all together. But that said, I did not I was I remember I was I would tell people that I would like question when I'm caught, you know, go out for beers, whatever, with friends. Here in the city. We talked about it we talked about, you know, why it's wrong to you know, to eat meat to sub, you know, to abuse these animals. And then Meanwhile, we be eating meat. Yeah, and in fact, so so the turning point for me was I was at dinner with my girlfriend at the time now wife, and we were both eating meat. And I was like, you know, why do you Why do you think this is okay? Like, why do you think this is acceptable? and blah, blah. I just kept like, testing her and pushing her on it. And you know, I'm like eating a steak. So she's, she's like, Yeah, that's a good anyway, so she went off, she read some more stuff. Two weeks later, she's vegetarian, and I am still eating meat. And I'm like, Oh my god, I gotta stop being a hypocrite and just do this. So I stopped eating meat. I still remember the last place I eat meat an awful awful place here in the city. It's a lot of fun, but it's like terrible food. Anyway, that was the last time I ate meat. So I stopped eating meat. And I've been a vegetarian for, I don't know, six years. And then I've always felt that I shouldn't be a vegan. I felt like that was the morally correct thing to do. But I don't know. I just I guess it's the same selfishness maybe or ignorance or naivety whatever, that that kept me from turning vegetarian even though I thought it was wrong. I maybe is what also kept me from going all the way and becoming vegan. And then yeah, the January hit I guess we can talk about forest green rovers and all that. But forest green rovers also played a role in this. But yeah, when when it was beginning, right, Shawn and I were like, you know what, let's just do it. Like I felt like I should be vegan for a long time. Let's just do it, man. That's the opportunity to do it. Let's Let's go vegan for life now. And yeah, ever since January. I've been vegan for four months, and it's awesome over the hump over the hump. That's right.
05:30
January, you can make it ourselves at least.
05:33
Yeah, I said, was is you exactly on the same path? So what was it? That says all slightly differently?
Shyam 05:41
Yes, slightly different in that actually, I was raised a vegetarian, I come from a South Asian background, I was raised Hindu. And so interestingly enough, both Nate and I are from a similar part of the United States. So we both now live in New York City on the east coast. We're both originally from the Midwestern region, us. So that, again, is like a huge agricultural part of the country. We grew up in rural areas. So meat was ubiquitous, you know, if you go to a friend's house, they're going to have meat for, for, you know, a meal. And so I was always kind of the odd person out right, the odd kid out, because like, Oh, yeah, I can't have that I can't eat that. And my mom was very strict about it, too, because it was very, you know, dear to her culture is very dear to her. And so, you know, I stuck to stick to it. But I was doing it in an unthinking way. Because this is just how we do it in my family, you know, and I loved the food we had at home, we have like South Indian cuisine. So it's like, no shortage of really tasty foods, I never felt I was wanting for anything, except maybe when I was sick. And again, this goes to show how you think of things as when you're a kid, I have these vivid memories of when I would be sick at home, like sick from school, and have a fever. And you could only really eat like toast or a little bit of water. Like I would see these like McDonald's and Burger King commercials. Like the giant, like burgers would come up on screen. And it wasn't until years later that I realised that there actually there's a job called being a food makeup artist. Yes, yes. Right, it's their job to make this stuff look incredibly delicious and glistening. And like it's just like floated down from heaven into your mouth or something. But I just remember as a call, man, I want that so bad. So it's like the power of advertising, you know, but you know, I just stuck with my culture. But my culture is also very dairy centric. Like we cannot live. You know, within my culture, like everything, we have sweets and festivals, it has some dairy component, and we're big yoghurt, consumers. So again, it wasn't until similar to Nathan, when I started to do a little more reading. And I started to branch out and think about the moral and philosophical implications of what I'm choosing to put in my body. That, you know, I had to realise, hey, even though there's a big part of this that's near and dear to me, like this comfort food, this culture, part of it that is intertwined with dairy, I got to think about where it's coming from, you know, and what is what is the cost of being able to do it. And it was, there's a lot of things not to get like, too deep, but then it's like, really, as an immigrant to the United States. I was born in India and moved here when I was very young, like forging an identity in a foreign country, as an immigrant you want so badly to fit in, you know, you want so badly to be a part assimilate as best you can, while still, you know, being proud of where you're from and who you are. So, you know, these questions, whether I was like totally conscious of them or not have kind of, I think, been in my mind for a long time. So, you know, it's a bit of a bit of a loaded question. But I think just like Nathan, you know, you have to, at some point, you have to think about what the choice you want, what the choice you want to make is, and then how do you fit into a system? Are you trying to make things better? Are you trying to reduce a little bit of maybe what you don't feel is going right in the world. And I think that's eventually how I came into veganism. And like Nathan said, we got to forest green rovers a little bit. We're both have been soccer fans for a long time, or football as long as it's correctly. You know, probably since the early 2000s. When we were younger. It's a big push in this country. We've got a lot of young soccer fans, we've grown up with the sport, and admired it. And so, this mix of a sport we really enjoy, and the moral and ethical philosophy of this club was just super appealing. And it's really I think it's really spurred us on to become vegan.
09:32
Yeah, definitely need to get on to obviously, the forest green stuff because I'm really intrigued as to how you cross a Ligue two club, you know, from sort of a very rural area of the UK with with a growing fan base, and obviously an international one, they're a very unique club, but still, we're very, you know, on the, in the footballing landscape of very small club, so definitely want to get into that, but before we do was just really intrigued as to like you know Midwest backgrounds for both of you and that upbringing like you say like and certainly my view of American culture from afar I've been been a few times to New York have been to to San Francisco once as well and so is limited experience and certainly that kind of the coastal probably experience as well so I'm really intrigued to start growing up amongst that agricultural kind of background and what it was to be you know American and you know this whole this whole kind of this whole kind of vibe what your families and friends back home have said since you've both said you know what we were going to go the whole hog we're bang into the forest green rovers we're not eating any animal products you know what was as everyone as everyone thought you've completely gone mad taken leave of your senses or is everybody kind of with you?
10:57
No No they are the former got made fun of us so much when I when I first went vegetarian oh my god I never heard no friends from family you know it's all joking it's all good nature but you know that's kind of like what we always do is just you know, go after each other but ya know always got y'all got made fun of big time you know a lot of also some some people trying to be genuine but not understanding what it means so like oh but you can eat you know you can eat chicken though right? No no so a lot of stuff like that. I think over time you know over time everyone's become a lot more understanding of and respect well not just because it's you know, they've experienced with me but it's you know, it's animal rights I think are really like taking off now I think a way more you know, I'd love to see the numbers but I'm sure it's it's so much in people's consciousness now that it in a way it was it was never was before in terms of like reaching the masses reaching people you know from hillbilly lands like where I'm from. So yeah, it was it was definitely adjustment even even now when I go back my mom's always like, I have no idea what to you know what what to make you Yeah, exactly. Where are we going? Are you gonna eat any on Thanksgiving too is brutal Thanksgiving is really tough because there's like nothing there and it's not only mashed potatoes i think is the only you know, I can't even have those anymore actually. Cuz they have butter. They always put butter in them so yeah, there's like, nothing I can eat Thanksgiving.
12:30
I'm Nathan I'm gonna hook you up we find a really good vegan mashed potatoes recipe. Let's go plant based butter. So
12:37
let's go let's go. By Yeah, no, no, but overall, it's pretty good. And I think you know, I know my parents both started eating more healthy more vegetables, less meat. I don't know if necessary. I mean, I don't think it's for moral reasons. But I think it's and they see me doing it, they know that it's also a healthy it's something you can do that's that's that's good for your body. So they've been doing that I'd love to get them into you know, the the moral aspects of it, you know, I sent him see spirits, he has some cow Spears, they, they haven't washed it yet, but I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm going home actually in a few weeks, so I'm going to try to like force it upon them to watch and just make you know, make people question that their behaviour but yeah.
13:21
How about for you showing them? What's been like for you with that with the family? And so
13:25
well, you know, probably the most My mom has assimilated to American culture was how incredulous she was that I was giving her 30 years but it's like, Hey, Mom, you're like everyone else. You're just looking at your son weird for today. He's vegan. So she's been supportive. But again, just like, She's so you know, she's so proud of her culture. And, you know, it's like, she's lived a majority of her life, living that lifestyle. You know, and you think about how difficult that may be to change later in life. Not that it's impossible. And you know, like you mentioned the farmer, like, from the Alex Lockwood movie, it's definitely not impossible, but it's just I think it's such a strange idea. Because to her this idea within the, you know, with Hindus within Hinduism, of holding the cow sacred, it's like, oh, using the products from the cow. That means, you know, it's something a cow naturally gives. So it's like the symbiosis between two organisms. I think that's the way she looks at it, but she hasn't looked deeper into what the systems are, you know, to produce so much milk the issues that are really underlie it. And so, you know, that naivete is there but at the same time, it's like it's so wedded to our culture that every you know, makes everyone makes their own decision, but I tried to tell my mom Well, these are the reasons why I've decided to do it. And I don't regret growing up Hindu. I don't regret having that, you know, I think almost like a headstart for the respect of animals, but now it's just taking the next step. Yeah. Yeah, it's very supportive of that.
14:57
I can I can relate. I mean, my my mum's sort of the family from India to and and and I know exactly what you're saying how there is just you know, it's just so part of the culture but and I often think you know maybe there's an element of the the upbringing that my mum talks about which was kind of the 50s in in India like in Varanasi that kind of area of and you know, the upbringing they talk about is much it's just it's about smallholdings you know it's about there was a there was you know, a cow that that you milked you know yourself for somebody in your household milked themselves and and it wasn't about removal of the young and so on and so forth. Now I'm not necessarily saying that as a vegan now that I agree with it but I can understand why if that was how you that is so divorced from what we've got now you know in terms of like the mechanisation of of this process and the kind of brutal factory nature of it that I can understand that unless you're unless you see that directly it'd be difficult to say well actually that is very different from what I was brought up doing so yeah, I'm kind of I'm kind of with you on that when it when it's so deep. It does seem like Well, what's the problem here?
16:21
Right yeah, and again, even for me sometimes and you know, I think it's sort of ascribed to Americans in general that we're happy go lucky I do think overall we're optimistic but sometimes it comes at the expense of acknowledging realities like the unpleasantness of certain things and you know you brought up antibiotic resistance and like the crowding of animals you know for dairies and and you know, factory hens and stuff right. So you know, we're a land of plenty and there's plenty but there's also plenty that goes to waste here but we tend to focus on that more than yeah you know, what is the what is the process you know, we don't we don't think about the means a whole lot which I think Nathan I have only become a little more attuned to the past few years
17:08
yeah 100% is is it's a process you know, I mean even I've been in it for years and in that for years I there's still things every day that I find out that I was shocked by you know, I'm kind of like I suppose you know, feel like I think you can feel as like once you've attributed the label vegan to yourself, you can sort of think well I've done it now you know, you know I'm doing everything I can and then you even then you find there's like there's still more like I think that the sort of the definition is we need to remember the definition you know, as far as is possible and practicable because it's so intrinsic into so many things it's almost impossible to remove if you spend a fiver you know that five pound note has got as got byproducts from pigs in you know, like it's it's in the physical cash that we use you know, there's talk about sort of symbolic you know, it's the very the very financial fabric. Yeah, so it's crazy it'd be it's almost impossible to have that completest kind of view I think,
18:25
would you say that that was like the thing that kind of blew your mind the most or what what did you what blew your mind the most that you find out like used animal products or kind of pierce the veil of
18:39
I think it's difficult to say one singular thing I think I mean, I know it's very pertinent at the moment but i i think until even during the podcast, so I'd gone vegan and I was probably in episode I think was Episode 18 for remember rightly, on which was like February of 2020, something like that. And when I interviewed Captain Hampstead from Sea Shepherd, and I felt awful because I hadn't realised the scale of what was going on in the oceans I know this is very topical and you know very sort of in the Zeitgeist with sea spirits etc. But I genuinely until he told me the things he told me that you know, if you if you have a plate of shrimp in front of you restaurant that there's essentially like 10 to 20 plates of other seafood that have been pulled from the ocean killed and essentially thrown for that one plate of shrimp. The devastation I just I just don't think I had any. I think we had been like everybody probably sold the idea that fishing was like, you know, this image of the sort of the, in the UK this kind of like the Cornish fishermen you know, with it with the little hat. The hipsters were now the you know the ones that are on the top and the, the pipe and the beard and they went out and he sang sea shanties and he came back early in the morning with his catch and he fed the village and
20:17
come back see shanties
20:20
Yeah, I think we can we can do those. They're perfectly vegan you can sing see Shanti Don't worry. I'm not going to drop that bombshell on you
20:38
say that you're fine. I'm sure that in New York there's probably it's probably in Brooklyn somewhere there's probably a bar devoted to the sea shanty?
20:45
No question there's I guarantee you that there are sea shanty singing groups multiple 10s I'm sure in the city, no question. No question. It's
20:53
gonna be like our version of Eurovision in the next couple of years. not even kidding.
20:58
There's a movement there's definitely movement somewhere and it's probably already not cool anymore. It happened like it last like 10 minutes ago it happened and that's that
21:10
will come back so it's can see it in the back pocket. It's gonna go
21:16
it'll come by we'll come back. So I think that the scale of the devastation in the hands, I think, right, because I think everyone can get behind the image of like a Japanese whaling fleet. I think everyone's behind that image. No one thought it was their Cod. Yeah, that called in ships that was the problem.
21:35
And I think the preponderance of like media especially these films that strikes or to you know start visual image for people right is really great and is raised awareness. I don't know if you guys have heard of this. novelist Jonathan Jonathan Safran for Yes, yeah, he wrote like everything that is illuminated you know, extremely loud incredibly close he wrote a nonfiction book called eating animals and so I think that was really seminal for me too and getting a chance to read that because he did a chapter on you know, fishing and I think I forget what the exact term is is like is it like by kill by catch by catch right? Yeah. You know all the other plates that go into your one plate of shrimp I just mentioned Jim and he just had like three straight pages have like one block of paragraph these are all the things that get caught in there and like listing different species and just see that as a rat is like oh wow, I finally see the scope of this you know, it's like it's not somebody out there with like an assassin sharpshooting to make it to the frozen aisle but yeah, this is in fact how they can provide this volume of seafood by having you know that this means of obtaining it so yeah, that really like was an eye opener similar to like watching these films and getting the wrong visuals.
22:57
There's always something I think about the ocean or about sea life that was that feels alien to us as humans and so it's okay because I think you know, I can't remember whether it was it was Captain Hampstead or somebody or it might have been Johnson suffering for who said it but you know if if people were to in order to get a pound of beef, we're collecting up you know, all the land that all the great land animals are collecting on giraffes and elephants and lions and killing them that there would be outcry you know, people would go crazy. You know, even even the most hardened metres would be like you know, because you see this on Twitter all the time then you see folks who hardened meat eaters they were there they're literally eating a burger furious at somebody with a dead lion. And, and, and rightly so, I mean, there's, you know, it's disgusting and deplorable. But, you know, if we're talking about loss of life, it's the same entity. You've still you've killed and paid for that killing. So it's, it's, it's remarkable the disconnect. We have this like, weird hierarchy of like, Is it pretty enough to save is if it's on the land? It's different to in the ocean. It's all this crazy stuff.
24:16
Yeah. speciesism. Right, right. Yeah,
24:18
absolutely. And I remember in eating animals for was also like, you know, out of necessity sometimes, like in the Philippines, I believe. Or maybe it was Indonesia. You know, some folks had the habit of cooking and eating dog meat. Yeah. But if you were to sit and tell that to somebody in New York or Brooklyn, they'd be like, what? Exactly, yeah, they would just lose their minds. Right? You know, but what really is the difference, right? It's what's available to them, and it's what's feeding them but it's, you know, it's, I guess, again, you know, we could get political I know we you delve into this philosophical side of things on this pod. But yeah, man, like, we just have a really strong advertising system here. Yeah, it's tough to It's tough to see beyond that.
25:02
Absolutely. I think about I don't know why. I just the other day I was thinking about Michael Vick, you know Michael Vick,
25:09
yeah the US football player with the dogfighting
25:14
exactly yeah. Yeah. Which was awful of course you know that was a terrible action he went to prison for it. But then you think about like what we bought we that's that's legalised in so many other you know, in so many other places and in the form of factory farming, like not even legalised, subsidised by government is like encouraging the torture of animals and this one guy tortures animals which is which is awful he goes to prison others you know make a profit it's just like this logical inconsistency that exists really all over the world and I think Sean was right like it's you know, marketing it's it's money in politics it's in it's just like speciesism in your ignorance like we know dogs we know cats we're familiar with them. We feel comfortable with them. Like we feel like they're, you know, one of us. We don't want to hurt them. But a whale cow like most of us don't have you know, pet whales or pet cows. So it's like a just like you said, like, kind of alien foreign to us. So yeah, it's okay to torture them to take their lives because, you know, they're not, you know, I don't know we don't have a relationship with them.
26:21
100% It's not the pulp fiction scene with where they're in the diner and Samuel Jackson and talking about he does is he doesn't he doesn't eat pigs.
26:32
Yeah.
26:34
He thought you were you wouldn't eat a dog or whatever. And he's like, yeah, would have to be a charming pig. You know, that. Is as silly as that. Purely down to Well, I like I like this dog.
26:48
With me. Yeah.
26:49
It's just crazy. craziness. But yeah, it's a token of, of New York. You know, and thinking about the New York specifically and and I'm saddened to say that when I last went to New York, so I went, I'm a big hockey fan. And that's kind of my Yeah, so kind of, perhaps I should do a podcast about like, a really nice hockey.
27:13
The wheeling nailers That was my local team back growing up. Lower Level team, just like we follow the four screen to do like, you can't do an NHL team. It's got to be kneeling, kneeling. nailers and really
27:26
wheeling nailers like a nail. To get that feeling you should that can be your team.
27:34
I'm starting the wheeling nailers podcast, it starts next week.
27:37
Let's go. Let's go.
27:40
Let's go nylund I love it. Yes, I was a big fan of. I am a big fan of hockey. But I haven't been to New York since 2017. The last day of the Obama administration it was the 19th of January 2016 when I left that's right isn't it? I forgot my dates right? I've got a copy of The New York Times from that day and I've kept from the last day of life before like things went even weirder in the world Yeah, yeah. But but I wasn't vegan back then. So I went vegan in that March I think it was that April's 2016 so sort of four or five years now. And so at the time the places I was going to eat were like cats deli and you know things like that, you know, the touristy kind of things that Rose bcaas Shrek Reuben Yeah. And I've got these like, now they look really gruesome pictures on my phone of like the you know, these these sandwiches and stuff. But just thinking about your experience like in New York now and appreciate scope COVID time so you've probably not been out and about since you've since you guys have gone like fully vegan. But what's the what's the the offering like in New York now? I'd imagine it's a pretty vegan friendly city.
29:01
It is. Yeah, it is. It could definitely be more vegan friendly, though. It's a lot of it is concentrated in a few areas like downtown, lower Manhattan, basically Lower Manhattan in Brooklyn. They're definitely vegan places, you know, all over the city, but I think a majority of the options are concentrated in a specific area. And really, it's it's kind of like class based, but it's expanding. It's actually shot where Shama and I live, there's a really good, really famous vegan place and there's a couple more that I have just opened up are just about to open up I saw so it's growing definitely growing, it's good. But there should be more there definitely should be more especially considering is 2021. Like where we like, considering where we are in the world. Considering how you would how progressive you would think New York City would be there should be more vegan options than there are. I don't know what do you what do you think?
29:54
Yeah, I mean, I think even from when I was a kid, because kinda like I mentioned like, it was very Feel like the odd person out growing up in a smaller town in the Midwest? So compared to that in New York is like oh yeah, we can use we can you know, if I needed to go to a vegan place I could do it. It's convenient. But like Nathan said for the you know, idea that we have of you see me being a progressive Bastion or trying to build the movement or make it an inclusive movement. I feel like that is kind of on the cusp. It's growing, but it hasn't like hit that critical mass yet. And again, like sometimes, you know, because again, what do you think of when you think of like New York City food? What's that like the consummate New York New York City? What's the staple of New York City food, Jim? Well,
30:40
like pizza, like, it's the it's the cat six, like the places that my I've got a really good friend who's from like upstate, and he lives over here is a British citizen now and he gave me a list of recommendations and it was like, dinosaur BBQ. Grimaldi's? Yeah, yeah, there's another pizza place on Bleecker Street that he recommends john yeah chose yeah Yeah, yeah, it was chosen I think and and yeah, dinosaur barbecued that I mentioned that one yeah, so there's like there was this list of UN cats obviously there's like you need to go to all these places but when I look back now every single one of them was about eating large quantities. America yeah. Oh yeah. Anyway Yeah. But yeah, I
31:37
think what shot was getting out there is like you know what, Shawn and I are both really missing you know, obviously, who isn't a pizza lover like we all have pizza and there's no there's very few vegan pizza options here there's a great place called double zero but it's it's in the Lower East Side and it's you know, not very accessible it's I mean, if you're down there it's awesome but we don't live down there and you know, there's dollar slice places everywhere we need some vegan dog and dollar slice places you know, we get pizza now without the cheese but it's not the same. We need to we need $1 we need a vegan you know, vegan pizza spot. So that's what I'm looking for someone out there if you're listening you live in New York City started start a vegan pizza shop.
32:17
This somebody who owns one is like going nuts now. Come to my place. Yeah,
32:23
man get a better social media team we need to hear about Yeah, that's true. That's true. But Nathan's getting it? It's like we need to be like living here. It's part of the lifestyle like hey, I'm on the run. I gotta I gotta head to the gym we stopped by the size place and going to like this double zero place. It's like oh, that's our fancy night out. Let's have a nice date down there. Let's do it. There you know, but we just have to see it be integrated in people's lives a little more? Yeah.
32:50
To all to all people here because like I said, it's very classist right now it's very like most of the vegan options cater to the wealthy and they don't have options for people who are everyday New Yorkers you know for the for the regular people so we you know we I don't know that's that's something else that has to change there has to be more affordable options for for everybody. So everyone can get involved in this Yeah,
33:15
Justice has been with impossible meet and beyond me so infiltrating the franchises so Burger King has their like Whopper which is impossible. They Dunkin Donuts which is a huge you know coffee place over here you may have visited when you when you were young here. They have like a beyond meat sandwich. So those are the places where people again where it's not like classes, tonnes of people go there whether you're rich or poor to grab a quick bite. So I think the visibility is getting much better. We're kind of those those companies signing up.
33:49
The other issue too though, is we're getting off topic but there's so many food deserts here as well, you know, especially again in poor neighbourhoods which are certainly classist racist but you know if you if you tell me I actually work in a very poor neighbourhood and it's you'll be hard pressed to find a grocery store you know it's it's just everywhere so it's a problem all over the US these food deserts that are predominantly in poor and non white you know, parts of cities and parts of the country huge problem and that's anyway I guess that's gonna
34:25
walk you right now go ahead and turn like food desert has been like become slightly outdated because people are like activists are starting to call it food apartheid it's like not necessarily like when you think of a desert you think of a place that naturally occurs so this is a place that naturally occurs right and has purposes Yeah, this is plants poorly designed design. So you know I get it I think I agree with the rationale.
34:51
Yeah. So So forgive my ignorance is so that because I think we've got similar things in kind of in London to be to be honest, but so So the notion here is that the likes of and forgive my brands probably wrong but the likes of your Dunkin Donuts or yours maybe your subways your eye hops those kind of you know the cheap eateries that are selling pretty much junk nutritionally speaking target these areas and and getting good quality food is you're just out priced you're priced out of the market yeah
35:26
yeah
35:26
yeah right yeah yeah yeah it's crazy it's awful but it is sickening really is like when you when you think about like the price of and that certainly happens over here in the UK I think it's the same the same thing you look at the price of auto like a for even in a supermarket you go to a supermarket at tescos or as there are Sainsbury's or whatever here for a pound you'll get a Goodfellas whatever pizza of frozen meat feast full of carcinogens and dead for two pound a bag of salad or you know rows of vegetables that you could roast or you could chew or whatever like a bag of fresh fed up like two pounds so like if you're if you if you our honest on a tight budget as a family like yeah we're gonna buy a choice of you know like we can all say as you know pretty comfortable vegans that you know would say two pounds for some veggies and so on but if your choices two pounds for that or one pound for that pizza then we're going to do
36:36
exactly when you got to pay the rent you got to pay you got to pay your bill like yeah it's it's a crime and I think that's where well i don't know i mean i'm guessing like part of it a big part of it is government subsidies like government subsidise the meat industry a lot and that allows them to have lower prices which allows them to continue to
36:58
anyway yeah
37:01
so like yeah, that's like the big companies also like have contracts with school districts. Sounds like pizza is considered vege in school because there's no sauce on it. So the kids have their their badge for the day you know, so it's like
37:17
a sound rageous Yeah.
37:19
And that's why I think it's so interesting to us too. I mean you know, of course you've talked about the moral and I know that we're never going to get to 40 screen eventually get out we have a lot to say I
37:30
can see a path out
37:34
visual choices and stuff like hey you know I want to make sure I'm vegan I want to make sure hey I'm maybe not buying as much disposable plastics are you know, reducing my fossil fuel or carbon footprint, but really it has to be on a higher level for for things to get where they need to be for the world to avert these crises and these these bad outcomes that we talked about whether it's like climate change whether it's these like pandemics from you know, that are resistant to the drugs we have, like we have to try to avert it so it's like it's interesting seeing how we can get a lot of people to to do that and that's why forest green rovers is like such a cool idea to us because it's not just one individual although you know, they do have a very charismatic chairman and Dale Vince is PR is like I guess you know, ability to go out there and charm is a huge part of it, but the fact that there can be a club that represents sport and Stanford like an organisation that's like hey, we can do this as a community like that is what's really kind of cool to me and I think Yeah, yeah
38:39
I'm with you is it's such a unique area as well I think to have gone into is not one that people expect and I think you know, Dale was very purposeful in his choice of football you know, because it's you know, we talk about class systems and so on you know in the UK, football is a you know, is very much a working class tradition you know when you look at most of the clubs that exist most of them came from some kind of industry club back in like the late 1800s so you take I know you guys are big football fans you know this history already but for those who don't you know, like the likes of West Ham United for example is what used to be Thames Ironworks FC, you know, that and and that was in 1895. So they will shipbuilders you know, in the East End of London is tough, tough life there and, and they you know, they were building ships and played football for for recreation. And that's become this. So and that's still woven into the fight as much as that you know, that's been what I don't know if you guys are aware of that sort of the UK term in football of the prawn sandwich Brigade, but that's not so this is a term that I think, I think was Roy Keane who you may you may know is ex Man United midfielder Now kind of like clickbait type type of pundit like it says it says things to get to get clicks but yeah yeah he's always he's got good opinions but they're obviously designed to get people to dial in on the debate but when he was a player I think he said that you know football is being taken over by the poor and savage brigade IE like the kind of capitalist interest if you like so it was I think it was at the time actually when Man United were purchased by the Glazers, and so on and the idea that now the average supporter like the working class support was priced out of the game this is still very much a thing that's going on you know it's 50 6070 pounds a ticket for a premier league game now which you know if you've got if you're a mum or dad with a child two kids to go to a game he just can't afford to do that anymore so that it's it's not this working class game but it's it's fascinating that you know football being the target forest green because it is so it's so like I said so woven into the fabric of working class life football and that's often an area that is targeted by like 90 say fast food, cheap eating by animal agriculture and so on. So yes, it is a fascinating point they've they've they've they've kind of targeted that area. On that note, How on earth did both of you discover for
41:33
so yeah, so I'll start today I think I'm the earlier of the two so I found them actually two or three years ago maybe in FIFA on PlayStation so I was looking for a league to team to like bring up you know, bring up to the premiere Yep. And I saw this team with these like crazy ridiculous like bright green kits and I was like this cannot be a real it's got to be a glitch there's no way there's a real team it's like Google them and I was like I found that you know first that the the greenest club in the world you know, they're doing all this amazing stuff in the environment. I also found out that there were a vegan club and you know, both of those values are are really really important to me even though I wasn't a vegan again like I was a vegetarian at the time but I still felt like everyone should be vegan now everyone who can afford to be anyway should be vegan and so anyway, so yeah, just aligned with my values. So I started following a couple years ago and I was just thinking like if I'm gonna put my money put my time into football, like I should do it for a team that I think is doing good in the world. And so I was like I'm gonna follow this team but you know it's hard to follow lead to from the US so I'm just kind of following on the internet
42:46
over here
42:50
you know, looking on there watching the internet watching YouTube you know, watching the highlights following along and then finally like this year, I hit up Shawn one day had a few too many beers and I like wrote out my manifesto to Sean like why we should start this podcast witness some ridiculous stuff in that manifesto But anyway, and I was totally like a Shama like the next morning when I was like shut up just disregard that text last night stupid idea Don't worry about but anyway, Sean was like No, let's do it and I was like
43:21
to send any explicit pictures along with the text I must not I just didn't know Yeah.
43:31
So anyway, so this year we started falling like seriously falling we've watched every every match and the pond was our kind of way of documenting our experience and also try and attempt I guess to try to bring others in who are like us who are outsiders who have no connection to Gloucestershire at all but simply appreciate what the club is doing off the pitch and want to support from wherever wherever they are. So we wanted to be kind of like that gateway in for guys who were just like us because we were you know for me anyway I was calling for a couple years but I had no like way to like really connect with the club and so that's that's kind of what we've been trying to do and just have fun along the way cuz you know we're dumb where we don't know are talking about you know football you know knowledge so we're not we're not like the guys are gonna like you know, analyse every part of the game
44:22
as much as your podcast it's not happening
44:29
so yeah, I think that Yeah, I guess I guess that's how I got into this kind of on the podcast started Sean.
44:34
Yeah, I mean, I think Nathan put it very nicely. I mean, for me, the first I heard of forest green rovers was probably by reading about them in The Guardian. So back to like my college days. I was really into like the writing of George mom, Bo, who I know is Oh, yeah, writer for The Guardian, and he have a column there. And so yeah, just getting into his experiences and how he would characterise the world. So you know the Guardian became some paper that I would just kind of keep in line with children about what's going on in the UK and of course it was trying to get ready for Jeopardy you know what Jeopardy is Jim? Yes. Okay the game show the game Sure. Yeah, so that's the highest honour if you make it on Jeopardy like you've entered you've entered you know, hallowed Pantheon but like yeah, so you know, keeping abreast of like world world events read the Guardian so I'd heard about this club that was carbon neutral and like really pushing the you know, the frontiers and being green and bringing it into how the club operates in the Quad This is really cool, but then I just kind of left it because I'm an arsenal supporter as like, Can I really get into league too? Is this really gonna be something I can commit hours of my life to? And so just kind of you know, every once awhile I'd see an article, but then you know, Nathan drunk texted me proposition in the best sort of way. Best sort of way. But no, I kind of like thought about it. It's like some part of the Premier League game like you mentioned and using Roy Keane term the pawn shop in the prawn sandwich sort of thing it's a little slick it's involving like oil money from the Middle East there's a lot of like I guess like iterations with like the world yep coming up in like Qatar and the labour that's used even though the football is like wonderful to watch and the reason I got into Arsenal and target the first and second person was Arsenal in the way they play football. Again, the more you learn about and you grow up you're like well is this representing what I want the world to be? And so when Nathan mentioned it, I was like, wow, but I actually think like this is something that I'm truly interested to learn about and recognise. I know nothing about this little club on top of the hill, no nothing last year. But man, it would be awesome to take this journey with Nathan just learn about it and talk to people and build that sense of community that I think many American football fans want because yeah, you know, that's what we view as authentic is like hey, you have a club you love and you get to know something about them or you feel welcomed by them and that's how we felt with every interaction we've had with someone that either represented forest green rovers like the club itself or a supporter that we've talked to so we've Yeah, I would say like fallen head over heels and we feel that personal connection more than just like oh, I'm gonna wear my arsenal even though I still do that you know, my fly Arsenal kid today still kind of look fly but it's just that deeper connection that I feel now what do you think Nathan?
47:37
Yeah, I just want to jump in there I especially the last thing that you said definitely have the deeper connection because of the people we now know who are players who are part of the staff who are fans but even more than that and all along I feel like maybe this is not I don't know naive of me but I feel like when for screen does well like that's that's a positive thing because that's getting the message the the green message, the vegan message out there even more it's amplifying these really positive messages and so I feel like when I'm rooting for for screening to win I'm not just rooting for you know a football team to win a you know meaningless game yeah I'm rooting for a message to get out there and it just makes you I don't know it just it just makes you feel so it's just it's it's awesome like I've just like Shama fallen in love with the club and
48:27
talking about it a lot of tea healing
48:29
beef. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You know, that's,
48:35
I feel much the same. I really do I totally relate to you know, what you said there about the connection with the club. You know, I think it's not just a connection with you know, aligning with with your ethics book a connection that doesn't exist within professional sport very often these days you know, you as a as a fan of Westham when I'm not a fan of forest green as a as a fan of the New York Rangers You know, you're not gonna go into Madison Square Garden You know, it feels like you're going to a Broadway show you know it's great but it's you go to a thing you see the thing everyone's you know, everyone's a list if you like and you're you're nobody you there's no connection to me. But where is forest green? You know, you you've Eve like you say every time they when you feel like there's a talking point somewhere about the food, their belief systems, their ethics, you know, the fact that the pitch isn't hasn't got animal products on it. And that has got to be sowing seed somewhere. I optimistically I hope. I haven't been on the terrorists that the terrorist is and heard opposition fans singing Where's your sausage rolls and all that sort of? Yeah, I think it is obviously, like somewhere in people's psyche. Yeah, you know, absolutely. And I'm genuinely heard people down there away fans and so on saying you know buying a burgers like and doing it really begrudgingly kind of got to eat this sandwich there's nothing else here and then as as they're eating again she's actually pretty nice
50:16
Tiffany you know
50:17
even if they go there once a year as an away fan twice you know once a year and a home fan you go four times a year and that's the only time you eat vegan and you're immersed in that I'm sure it's so seed somewhere
50:29
absolutely yeah, I think you're making any change comes like changing your behaviour is not just like one single you know, you see one thing and then boom you change it I think it's like a bunch of different touch points and I think forest green is is one of those just like you said sowed the seeds you go to forest green the one about the message you have a vegan burger whatever that alright that's now in the back your mind then you see this other thing and you connect it to that experience that experience so Yeah, I agree I think I think it's powerful and showman I've talked with a lot of away fans actually because sometimes we'll bring on opposition like opposition podcast yeah leading up to games and we always ask them like what do you think of forest green rovers off the pitch and by everyone everyone has actually spoken to like admires what they're doing off the pitch those who have been to the to the ground like compliment the food and so yeah, I think we've seen it it's sowing seeds just like you said in in Yeah, all around the UK and really all around the world.
51:35
under percent yeah 100% and it honestly is you will not get better food out of British football. Yeah, yeah, even Premier League Yeah, you'll pay 15 quid for a veggie burger or something. You pay some obscene amount of money for something that is awful. Yeah. Just because you're there okay, I've been I've been a few times that England games at Wembley and it's just outrageous yeah there's like a falafel and chips option that they do there now wish to be fares progress but it's is it's dry and like and it was ridiculous money like there is no way that any any working class sort of family could could pay for the ticket that transport that is completely priced anybody normal out of the market you know and what yeah, we you go to forest green and I it's not expensive and B it's just it's genuinely could food like people go there just because the food that
52:39
we've heard that that's awesome. Yeah, that we're
52:41
itching to try it and after talking to Jade August, August Yeah, I mean yeah, I think this might have pushed me over the edge to be more hungry now. Yeah, just make decisions when you're hungry but here booking Oh, you
52:55
can make this one you can make this of golf go well, it's like in your sort of when you when you sent that drunk text Nathan, and short when you received it, and you thought okay, this sounds cool. Let's do it. This would be a bit of fun. Did you ever at that point, think that you'd be chatting with the chairman? Many of the players? No, no,
53:18
no, not at all.
53:20
Even when Ligue two Did you think there's no way we're gonna get that kind of exposure?
53:24
No way I thought that you know, our wives are gonna listen to it and maybe not even then nobody's gonna
53:32
stretch the stretch goal was my mother in law may look at my mother in law to listen Yeah,
53:36
exactly. So no, we were we have just been shocked shocked by like, how kind and gracious and warm and really what a football family it is because I know we you know, we've talked about it already. But forest green is a family and and everyone's humble, everyone's kind. Everyone's like, gracious and hospitable. And like, come on, and come in. Which is so cool and unexpected. Because we're these two outsiders, we have no connection to, you know, we and we're also two idiots we have no idea what we're talking about when it comes to football. And
54:14
most football fans don't even worry about it. Everyone's been shouting things incoherent on a Saturday. You're there to do.
54:31
microphase these guys
54:31
are the real deal. Exactly.
54:36
Yeah, no, no, no, we had no expectation of this act. Well, actually part of my pitch, which still hasn't happened yet. I think one of the top points my pitch like as Sean said, Sean's an arsenal fan. So one of the top points of my pitch was like, you need a way to meet active bearing and you don't have one right now. This is your way in. It's one of the points on the on the manifesto, that we haven't
54:57
done yet. But after which beer was that At that point in scrubs
55:04
at that point Was he an investor
55:06
yeah
55:07
sure he was was he was
55:09
like right before I think he bought in August or September maybe yeah it was it could really start into the summer end of the summer we didn't start we actually we watched a few games first before we started the pod so we didn't start the pod on match week one we started it I don't know match week nine metric 10 so I'm like that so we had been around we Yeah, so by the time we decided to start the pod yeah after was a established investor shareholder
55:40
Nice. Yeah, he reached out to me at night Yeah, yeah,
55:45
we got to do it though shimmy, but we're gonna do it
55:47
you know, the momentum is there so that was Nathan's carrot that he dangled in front of me I was like, Hey, this is vegan.
55:54
So I was like let's do it there we go. Let's do
55:58
the stick yet. We're still waiting. Waiting for someone to just shut us down completely and say no what what are you you're dickless no you can't
56:08
say alone I think you'll find it yeah you've got the you've got the big yeah you got the big man's approval so you're you're fine No one's no one from the PR at forest green is gonna go Hold on guys this point they've been awesome too
56:24
though by the way they've been awesome although we didn't know cuz we never we never you know we're brand new to this we have no idea what we're doing in the podcasting right and like we all know we're doing so we had Jade on we had Chris Stokes the captain on I think that was it and then and then the club reached out to us and they were like hey guys, can you like us like you need to let us know when we're going to have people on because you know we need to keep track of everything we're like oh crap we didn't even think about that but yeah, you're absolutely right. We should you know so now ever since then we've been in communication with them and they've been awesome man. Shout out Connor shout out Noah and everyone who's on the you know the FDR team they've been so so nice and so helpful and kind and Yeah, awesome awesome crew beginning
57:08
we use just reaching out to people directly and saying hey, you want to come on my podcast?
57:12
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so the plan was just to do fans like we wanted to have like locals on and just to talk about their experience as a fan and then like maybe recap the game and then whatever we never never planned or thought like like we said that it would reach the levels of like Dale vents or players or Jade. But what happened was like once you start having people on they're like, oh, let me connect you to this person. Let me know you've been so nice and that's that's how we've gotten so many. You know, so many really cool people on it's like, someone connects us then someone else can so yeah, just again, it's the family it's a football family. Everyone loves everyone. Everyone takes care of each other. It's It's so cool.
57:58
So we recovered we've we've been chatting for a while now, but just just finally, the plans for the podcast. Where have you got any idea of where it's gonna go next? Are you just hanging on for the ride and see where it goes?
58:11
Hanging on for the ride? Yeah.
58:13
2020 just taking it one day to the next. Yeah, yeah,
58:17
exactly.
58:19
But yeah, now that we've made these connections, you know, to bring it back to that kind of metaphor of seeds, right? I feel like we've planted the seeds of like friendship, getting to know people and we want to see how that grows. You know, we want to see how we can nurture that. And we believe in what forest green rovers doing for, you know, for the cause of veganism is for them for the cause of you know, a better future not just for a select few, but for many people and discord. So as much as we can support them and we have the time we do both have full time jobs. Those but yeah, whatever we can do, man, we're along for the ride. Yeah.
59:00
No, no plans. We started some some stops. Of course stuff here though. We we started in New York City. ftrs. We start a little fGr club here. And Wow, really, and it's growing, man. It's awesome. We started with a few of us, and I don't know how many probably 1314 of us now, but I think it's gonna keep growing, keep growing. And it's so fun. Like we have a little text group we have we start getting together once everyone's vaccinated and the weather gets nice, we're going to get together and watch matches together outside over some beers. fGr America's another like, thing that we've worked with some others on and yeah, there's so many fans and new fans coming coming aboard. Like all the time. So I think the message is I know the message is getting out there and it's just so awesome to see.
59:48
Love that. What a cool, cool idea. The fGr America fan club. I love it.
59:54
We're gonna take over we're gonna we're gonna go away day somewhere and we're just gonna have yeah 50 have us
1:00:02
That's right. I'll be at the Wailing nailers supporters club. Oh, sorry. Yeah, so I've got the Sea Shepherd stuff on my my wheeling nailers supporters club. We're based in Gloucestershire, we're gonna have about 1000 people all watching wheeling nailers game televised to find a way to get the chairman on it'd be awesome fellas it's been it's been it's been great chatting with you and I just encourage everybody to check out the podcast it's so much fun a great kind of companion piece I think to watching forest green rovers games. And the wonderful way although is you know, 1000s of miles apart I do you feel like there's a there's a genuine sense of forest green that you've managed to capture even though you know, different different countries, different continent, different part of the world, etc. different experiences of football but it does feel that there's something very forest green about it. So I love I love what you're doing. Thanks so much.
1:01:15
Thank you and same to you man your pot like we're huge fans of your project. So keep doing what you're doing. I think you're doing you know, the Lord's work.
1:01:26
If you can educate to fools, you can educate a lot of
1:01:30
appreciate it. Appreciate it. Well thanks, guys till next time
1:01:34
until next time,
Emilia A Leese & Eva Charalambides
Fri, 6/4 8:26PM • 52:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
vegan, people, book, vegans, bit, non vegan, point, realise, eva, reading, veganism, opportunity, conversation, question, learning, idea, feel, hear, absolutely, talk
SPEAKERS
Jim Moore, Eva Charalambides, Emilia Leese
Jim Moore 00:16
Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans, you're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding and hopefully yours, of all things plant centric. And this week is no different. This week, I got to sit down with the authors of think like a vegan. That's Amelia lease and Eva Carolyn beetus think like a vegan is a book this really a collection of essays that focus on vegan ethics, everything from intersectionality and some of the more challenging discussion points that us in the vegan community often have with each other but also some of those debates that that people new to veganism often find themselves in and on you know, can often find themselves ill equipped to answer you know, I think is as Amelia and Eva put it far better than me. You know, when we when we enter the world of veganism often we have a narrow viewpoint from you know, the perspective at which we entered it might be that, you know, we're, we're particularly well versed from a health angle, or we really understand the ethics around non human animals and working towards total animal liberation. It might be that, you know, we're very environmentally focused, but often you know, we find ourselves being quizzed or perhaps not even as strongly as quiz maybe maybe just just asked to almost be the spokesperson for for veganism bio non vegan friends and and I think the way I'd put it I'm not sure Amelia and Eva would but we'll find out in the conversation. But I'd always put things like a vegan is kind of like a survival guide if you like or at least a really good grounding to help you navigate some of those conversations. And you know, ultimately, I suppose Yes, influence people to some extent, but but navigate those waters calmly with your with your non vegan friends and family, as well as you know, perhaps within the community itself. So as you can see, I'm probably not as well versed Well, I'm definitely not as as to talk about the book as ever, and, and Emilia so without further ado, here's a conversation between me, Amelia and Eva, the authors of things like a vegan
Emilia Leese 02:56
so let's see, I went vegan in 2013. And basically, the reason I went vegan was the the reason and actually I talked about this in the book is is realising that dairy milk you you need the cows to give birth because they are mammals like us. And without the birth, you can't have lactation. So and I don't know why it took me until I was 43 to figure that out, but there you go. It did. And, and, and I can tell you exactly I was running on Hampstead Heath, and I realised that and I basically stopped in my tracks and I was like, right, okay, vegan now. So,
Jim Moore 03:52
so was it legit literally, you just had this luck epiphany. I mean, you imagine you must have been like reading some stuff or listening to some stuff on the run up to it that was sowing seeds or not, was it just like a?
Emilia Leese 04:04
No, no, no, you're you're right, you're right. You know, I was I was reading a few things here and there. And that got me thinking and so you know, so there was that. But it wasn't something that I was super focused on or like, lots of reading. But yeah, it was I had I think I had seen a poster or something I have to say. And I was like, wait, what cows What? And and that that really did it but it wasn't like something that I had been thinking about for a long time. And that then, oh, finally it dropped in but it was it was a lot simpler in a way.
Jim Moore 04:56
the dairy industry has been incredibly clever at For some reason, creating that dissonance in our minds, I remember having exactly the same epiphany and then thinking, How did I not quite realise that it's quite, it's quite obvious when you think about it, but not at the time. Exactly. About You, Eva, be great to hear a little bit of your, your journey.
Eva Charalambides 05:23
For sure, well, I think cows in this whole conversation will be 3343 here because I was I was a vegetarian for about seven, eight years. And a large part of that was health and kind of more of the personal and I like to say selfish choices I was looking for an ends to means but as soon as somebody pointed out that cows don't just make milk all the time. I was like, What? So if I'm, you know, I'm gonna date myself a bit, but it was probably I want to say the time I was very active on Tumblr, it was towards the end of 2014, I was doing a lot of like food blogging, and I was in that world. And it really just took somebody being like, yeah, cows don't always make milk. That doesn't make sense. And I was like, hold on, if I'm already not doing everything else, how easy will it be for me to transition once I know now that this is an ethical choice, and this is something I could be doing for animals. So it was quite quick as well once that that information was presented to me.
06:25
And how easy was that, that final step for you?
Eva Charalambides 06:29
exceedingly simple, I was lucky because I moved out shortly thereafter in 2015. And it was like my first opportunity to be like, I've got my own space, I can fill my own fridge, I can buy my own shampoo. So now there's absolutely nothing in my way. I'm very, very easy and then very shortly after that again in 2016 I began working in the vegan world I got to have vegan on my business card and I like joined this vegan bubble and it was vegan all the time. Which has influenced this book and everything else.
Jim Moore 07:03
Absolutely. For you it was it was equally once you've made that logical connection as simple step or or did you find actually that there's a whole heap of learning for me to do here?
Emilia Leese 07:16
Um, it was a relatively simple step. Because I was like, Okay, well, I'm not you know, this this is what I'm going to do. It was it was a bit more difficult navigating with my partner but that worked out in the end. But there was lots of learning in any event because I'm just getting better at reading labels especially in the beginning, you know, where you just sort of like wait a second Oh, I gotta read this labour because Okay, yes, these are crackers. But there's animal products in the crackers. Why is their animal product product in the cracker? Okay, you know, so so you start realising that and then you're like, Oh, okay. So now I do this, this is what I do now. Okay, fine. So, so yeah, definitely there was a bit of you know, learning about different just different recipes, different substitutes for baking and that sort of thing very practical things. There was a lot of that for sure. And then and then also reading reading the material on the ethics and reading the philosophy and that was that was very important because ultimately, that really is that is what made me understand the veganism as a as a full picture. So it wasn't just my it was yes of course it's my day to day but it's my mindset like how do I fit what does this day today mean? In in a bigger context, what does it mean and what am I really trying to do? So those are the those are the kinds of things that that I really got got interested in as well as the practical stuff of reading and finding out and you know, like I didn't know about additives and things like that but just because my diet before didn't really consist of a lot of stuff that would have additives I mean, you know, like you know, like crisps and things like that absolutely. But you know, it wasn't it wasn't like a huge huge portion of what I what I ate so I was able to learn about that relatively quickly and then you know, the reading of all the philosophy and the ethics that took a little bit more time but that's never ending we're always learning aren't we?
Jim Moore 09:39
Yeah that that side of things Absolutely. Like you know, on Bernie for years in but in that four years, every day feels like another kind of lesson particularly when you start to get into it and I cover this a little bit in the book I'm probably jumping ahead we'll come back to this subject as at some point but the, you know, when you start to look at things with a sort of internet intersectional lens and use thought to see things that how they interconnect, then you open up, you know, Pandora's box when it comes to comes to learning and sort of self education. But we'll pause that one. Because I think you cover that in a very astutely in the book. So we'll, we'll cut, we'll come on to it. I'm interested to find out like, what, what sort of communities that you kind of gathered around you at those times? Was there a community waiting for you both? It sounds even a little bit like that you've you found one through work, etc. But was there kind of a broader community that welcomed you in early on? Or did you feel quite alone at the beginning?
Eva Charalambides 10:37
Good question. I remember seeking out a lot of internet connections. So the Facebook groups, like I said, Tumblr, kind of finding people who were in the same mindset and connecting with them, you know, whether that was sharing the recipe, or putting out a call for like, the best running shoes I can find with like water based glue. I found a lot of people helpful that way. But it did take a while until I had, like vegans around me that I could share dinner with, or, you know, go to the vegan festivals with that took a lot more time. And it was through work. And it was through being hired into a new company and hiring vegans all the time, and just meeting new vegans every day, and pretending like nobody in the world wasn't vegan for like my eight hours a day, which was really fun. Um, yeah, but I think it was, you know, a small challenge to find the vegans like, in my neighbourhood around me, because it felt like, at that time, especially, it was still very much the start of that kind of green wave where we're plant based and eco. And like, all of those kind of buzzwords were just kind of new and super foods. And a lot of people are like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I eat like that. But I'm not a vegan. or something along those lines. So to find, like, you know, especially ethical vegans, people who had the animals in mind, and we're talking about the issues, apart from the menus at restaurants and stuff like that took a little more time.
Jim Moore 12:07
Yeah, 100% 100%? How about how about for you, me? Was there? Was there a community around you?
Emilia Leese 12:15
This? It's a really good question. So I've been thinking about it. Well, well, if I was talking, and I have to say, you know, so this was 2013. And for me, at that time, Instagram was still relatively new. And that was really helpful. To me. And, and then yes, and Facebook groups and things like that. But I made a lot of new friends. And, and with my old friends, it was fine, because I was like, hey, there's this new place, you want to go there? Or, you know, so so that, but it wasn't, but I didn't have an immediate go to person, let's say. But that didn't even take, I was very lucky, I have to say, because I found some really made some really amazing connections from Instagram, and with people who are some of my closest friends now. So I have to, you know, people complain sometimes about social media and about Instagram, but a lot of times it's how you manage to relate to it, and how to use it. And I managed to find amazing people. And for that I'm completely thankful that it exists because I don't think I would have otherwise found lots of people. I mean, especially, you know, yeah, I just there was nobody immediately around me. Now there's more, and, you know, there's, you know, neighbours, and so on who are vegan, but, but then, but then No, not so much. That's what I knew, obviously. And so yeah, it was it was tricky, but I got lucky, I got lucky.
Jim Moore 14:13
Just as we're there, I'd like to explore this particular point around social media, because it's often something that I go back and forth with and so on. And when we're talking about communities, I think it's quite an interesting thing to, to sort of discuss and I'd love to get your, your, your viewpoints on it. As people who've been in the vegan community for a few years now, and obviously have built communities online and met, met plenty of folks through that. Do you see there being any kind of danger to this kind of the creation of a sort of vegan bubble if you like, so we sort of see more of what we were interested in. And we can we can I worry anyway, maybe you'll correct me on this. I worry that we can get a little bit lulled into the sense that actually think, you know, things are progressing a lot faster than then than we then they actually are, you know, we've there's new Ben and Jerry's ice cream, so we must have one, you know, that kind of that kind of mindset. And, and we're not we're missing perhaps some of the opportunity to push on from a, you know, an ethical standpoint from whereas I think if I went back and you know, think about people that I can think about somebody I know, you may have heard of called Fiona Oaks, who's, she's been vegan for 50 odd years. And, you know, since she was three, and I think about the folks in that period, I wonder if they were, they were more more active, you know, in the, in the sort of, you know, whether it be whether it be directly protesting or attending, you know, vigils or saves, or, you know, these kind of things, I wonder whether we sort of switch off from it a little bit because of social media, because, you know, it's all a bit comfortable. So long, rambling, sort of question more of a more of a muse, but I would love to get your perspectives on good.
Emilia Leese 16:05
Um, should I go? Should I go first? And Well, see, I don't know I The way I see it, is, this is these are our communities, right? So this is where I look at social media, like the town square. So back in the day, we would go down in the town square, we would walk there, and we would meet up with people and we'd have discussions townsquare walking now not so much. You know, you'll you'll you'll do this online. And so you have a different you have more people. And so you talk to more people? Do we put ourselves in a bubble? I think to some extent, yes. But don't we always do that even you know, vegan, not vegan, whatever it is, if somebody likes, I don't know. You know, they like sparkly things on cats or something. And so they'll gravitate to the sparkly cat section. And you know what I mean, like so. So we, we always gravitate towards things that we like, that's just what we do as people. So and I don't think and I'm borrowing language from a philosopher here. I don't think that there's a more authentic community in the past, I don't romanticise the past. And I and neither the future we have now, this is what we've got, this is the hand we've been dealt, we play it. And if the playing means we engage online, then we got to sort out how do we engage online? What does it mean? Does it make me happy? Does it make me unhappy? Is it something I want to do? But it would be the same way? If you're engaging with people, you know, in the town square? Is that something I want to do or not want to do? And I grew up in a small town in Italy, where there was this town square mentality where you would, you know, go there or not go there. Some people just were like, No, I don't go into the town square, because everybody's talking about me, I don't want to hear their stuff, blah, blah, blah, exactly the same things that we say about online discussion. So so we just need to work all those things into into our life. And I think they, they can be extremely helpful. And, but also, they can be problematic sometimes for sure. with anything, so it, it's always good to have somebody that you can go and and talk to about these things. That's that's really, that's really important. And let's see, you said bubble, you said, whether we get comfortable, that's also a very good point, do we get comfortable? And again, you know what, I'm going to say this, you're, you're gonna know exactly, I'm gonna say, we've always done that to it, because it's, it's, you know, where, where people. And, you know, we've always been, we will always get a little bit comfortable. So we just have to find what works, what works for us.
Eva Charalambides 19:29
Well, I have, I have two things I can add to that. I completely agree, though, that it's the way it is. I will say first point at a very personal level, I think social media is accessibility. So for a lot of people, there is not the opportunity to march or digital or choose to do in person activity of any kind. And so thank goodness. You know, I've come up in an age where I have people at my fingertips at all times, and I can feel that connection. But I will say Even working it and even having my so called bubble, that bubble could burst so easily. I just have to sit down with family member it just to sit down with one non vegan, or I just have to wear vegan shirt into an Uber and like bubble burst immediately. So yeah, okay, if you scroll all day and everything is, you know, when petition champion this, you know, maybe you'll get a little caught up in that, but you put the phone down, and I feel like the real world still screaming at you a little bit. So it's nice to have the balance of choosing what we see online and letting that be, you know, a little bit of the positive end of the vegan world since it's always so brooding and negative and heartbreaking.
Jim Moore 20:41
Honestly. You're both so right, you've genuinely given me a bit of a an epiphany, if you like I thank you both those those are fantastic perspectives on it. And then once I haven't necessarily heard before, so that was excellent. Thank you. Where did you both meet? And when did you decide to write a book together? I'm fascinated by by that kind of that kind of story. Whoever would like
Emilia Leese 21:10
to go on either.
Eva Charalambides 21:12
I always forget the year I almost always forget the year was it 2016 or 2017. We I wanted one of those. There was a there was a vegan the same. We can't we just can't. There was a vn summit in Berkeley that we had both independently travelled to. And on the same morning, we both ran at the same Canyon without knowing it. We ate breakfast at the same deli without knowing it. And then we had been introduced during one of like a, you know, a speaker's conference. And very quickly, people had asked me if me was a family member, a sister, a cousin, how were we related because the you know, the spark was there. And I think it was very much solidified. And we've talked about this story at length and I will talk about it forever. The first opportunity we and dine together. We took a box of doughnuts to go so we would lecture and the lecture was on macrobiotic vegan eating. And we were sitting in the back row with these big, you know, very unhealthy vegan doughnuts. Nothing connects us more than those donuts. really, truly, really, exactly completely not macrobiotic vegan donuts, but there you go. Talking about connecting and bubble like you find another junk food vegan. And that's it right?
Jim Moore 22:34
There's no deeper bond, even more so than the sparkly cat people, the the junk food vegans, because they're the real deal.
Eva Charalambides 22:44
Yeah, so despite living so far away, we had the opportunity to then meet almost yearly, in a different city for a vegan event, and worked tables together and did promotion together and did all sorts of basically any opportunity, we had to promote veganism together or eat vegan food together, we took the opportunity. And so it didn't take long, I mean to have a book idea, again, over food in a bakery in Toronto, clearly, clearly, clearly. And the idea really like the book is a few things, a collection of essays, and then the workbook portion of the book where it's practical questions and answers for people to kind of get a better understanding of how to take what they've learned out into the world. But that workbook was the heart of what we wanted to do, we thought, how can we create something for vegans to feel more confident in breaching the topics with non vegans? And then how can we also introduce veganism to non vegan time. And so from that work workbook, and some of the essays we collaborated on, it kind of came together into one fantastic piece.
Emilia Leese 23:57
Yep, exactly. Yeah. And then, and then we just, you know, we have this idea. So we started putting it together. And, and then we found our publisher. And, I mean, the whole process. The whole process took about three years from the moment we had the idea to publication day. And again, you know, we were used to talking and collaborating remotely anyway. So that wasn't that wasn't so much so much an issue at all. And yeah, I mean, it's it was It's incredible to think back to that moment, because I was sitting in the back of their car, and even her partner, were driving me to the airport, and that's when the idea happened. And it's just incredible to think of that moment and then to see the end product in reality, it's, it's sort of surreal. Like, I don't feel like it's really happening, you know, but it's happening. But yeah, so so. And in so the distance wasn't really ever an issue and again, because of all the variety of communication modes that we have, we can talk in almost, you know, not just almost real time in real time, even if we're, you know, if it's just through through messages, or you know, like, okay, let's have a call and read through this. Okay, what do you think about this? What do you think about that, and that sort of thing? So that it's just incredible. Would we have been able to do this? You know, 30 years ago, I don't know, would have been three letters. That would have taken some time.
Eva Charalambides 25:51
I think I would have just stayed in Scotland with you. That's true.
Jim Moore 25:55
That sounds like a good option to be fair. With the inspiration for for the book, in terms of, you know, Was this something that you felt you both felt that, you know, this is something we would have liked, at certain point in, in your journeys? Or was it something more identified that other people might benefit from where as you'd sort of, you know, travelled through the communities? If you like?
Emilia Leese 26:22
That's a great question. I, for me, it definitely was. The questions that I had had, and situations I had come across, and then talked about it with friends. And then friends asking me questions or me hearing, or witnessing certain things happening and Eva witnessing certain certain things happening and and how do you deal with that? So I think it was more of a, for me, it was more of a, it came to me. And so it helped me to think through these things. And so I thought, Well, hey, if it helped me to think through these things in this way, in the way that I've been doing, well, it's going to help other people. And that was actually it was in fact, the, the impetus of the of the idea itself, in the back of the car was was exactly that, like, how can we help people? vegans in particular, sort out all the different strands of the issues that come up and give them the tools to work out the the ethical problems, and the conundrums that you get faced with? So, so yes, it certainly would have been useful to me on day one. Say? No doubt. So yeah, and hopefully, it will be helpful to people, to people now, on whatever day they are, it is one of the interesting things. If I could go on a little tangent. So one of the interesting things at one of these, these vegan festivals where we've we've done advocacy and tabling and so on, one of the things that struck me so the the tent was called, why should I go vegan? So people would come and say, Okay, tell me why. So I would come up with a lot of different things. And there was one person who brought her friend said, Please explain to my friend here. So I explained to friend, and she had been vegan for I don't know, like 18 years or something like that. And then, at the end of my very brief, maybe one minute long thing, spiel, however long was she said, I have never heard it just discussed that way. And I've been vegan for 18 years. And that to me, I was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we all need we all need to stop and, and help each other out and be able to speak in different ways and to own the material in our heads, you know, so that we can then mould it and shape it and be able to talk to people in a lot of different ways, in an in a lot of different contexts to, you know, people who are friendly or people who aren't and all everything in between, you know?
Jim Moore 29:37
Absolutely. Go either sorry. Yeah.
Eva Charalambides 29:43
Oh, yes, I agree. I think so much of our personal experiences went into the book. And so much of that came from like, having people say, oh, Eva will explain it. But oh, Eva understands how to explain it. I would say yeah, no, like, surely you Understand it enough to act on it and to feel it and appreciate it as a vegan. So there must be a way to make it much more clear without having, you know, the cliff notes or the infographic or kind of some of the other ways people learn kind of the facts or stats that they want to push forward. It was like, there's not really a tonne of very accessible ethical handbooks that will say, Listen, you got this, here's the way to frame it, here's the way to discuss it, here's the way to bring it up, here's a way to bring it back, whatever the case may be,
Emilia Leese 30:36
I think you've makes a really good point, they're insane. So that you don't need, you have all this information in your head exactly what she said, You've got it. So So you've got to make it part of yourself, you know, to synthesise it, so it becomes part of you. And then that way, when you're talking, it's very authentic, if I could use that word in people know that you're not just rattling off numbers and bla bla bla, and because, you know, but they they hear what you have to say that comes from very real place. Whether they're persuaded or not is completely immaterial. But you because you have no control over that. Well, you have control over is what you say, and how you relate to that person. So yeah.
Jim Moore 31:29
Would you sort of almost describe, describe it in a way as like, I'll Chuck the word out there and see where it lands, sort of almost like a sort of a survival guide, in a way, like, in a way I think, you know, if I think about my time, in the short four years of being vegan, I've navigated many conversations, some very badly, some quite well, I think, and eat but each time having to sort of learn and adapt, is it in a way sort of a way, a sort of a methodology, a kind of a book to help you navigate those those waters a little bit more commonly, perhaps, then, then that long process of finding things out and things going wrong, and you barking numbers at people like a that you've heard of the latest documentary? Is that would that be a fair way to describe it?
Eva Charalambides 32:28
I think that yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the things that maybe a lot of new vegans stumble on or something I see it's very common, is like, a lot of non vegans, when they approach you with these questions, expect you to be an authority on a lot of different topics at once. Right, we are not nutritionists, we are not farmers, we are not, you know, all desert island, divers, we have none of these things. So when we can, you know very much simplify the argument centred on the animals, again, on the ethics and about what we're personally doing. I feel like a lot of the confusion can drop away. And so the way that the book is that like life raft, or you know, something to help you struggling is really just to show you, you don't have to know everything, like I'm saying on these cue cards, so that you're meticulous in your answers to people because if you know, veganism is about not commodifying animals, and it's about freedom for living beings, like it's really easy to take every argument or every conversation and bring it back to that core belief and understanding
Jim Moore 33:41
100% and I see a scene away actually, the sort of Rise of the vegan YouTuber, if you like that sort of come debate me kind of tables that they almost can make people feel I've had a few conversations of people with it, they've almost been made to feel kind of a bit as vegans more uncomfortable, because they're not necessarily they don't feel as equipped, or as confrontational really to have that kind of discourse with, with people that they see from these kind of like the almost the celebrity vegan types. So yeah, I think I think that's sort of this more practical guide to help you navigate those waters and recognise I love this point about, you know, I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a farmer. I'm not, you know, but but this is what I this is where I am. I think that's a fantastic point.
Emilia Leese 34:29
Exactly. And take it taking it back to the to the, to the core principles, then you don't have to have all these arguments about numbers and about this and that, because people are people really wanting to talk about that when they ask you that, is that really, you know, and when they are when they're arguing with you when they're battling with you? Are they really trying to get information or are they just trying to get Sort of one over on you? Or is it is is there good faith in that argument? Or in that discussion? Not even argument? I don't want to use that word. But is there good faith in that discussion? Because if the if there isn't good faith in that discussion, no one is under any obligation to have a discussion. If it's not in good faith, no one's under any obligation to give a response. And we need to feel comfortable saying no, saying nothing, or if we are going to say something, to feel comfortable with the basic principles, and, and in the book, that is why we bring it back to use. It's not treatment, but its use, we always talk about, oh, you know, we treat the animals well, and bla bla bla, bla bla bla, which is fine. Obviously, for those the subject of that treatment, no doubt is better to be well treated than not. But we never asked the question, why should we be using animals in the first place? And that is what we want to get at is, that is, is what we just have to go back to, because then that changes the paradigm of the of the discussion. You know, you're, you're not having, but and this and that, no, you're you're going before all that, because without use, there is no treatment. So you've got to have the use conversation first. And I think that is also very, it makes people pause, because they haven't necessarily not everybody. They haven't necessarily thought about it in that way.
Jim Moore 36:53
Yeah, no, absolutely, that that idea of coming back to that central argument, I think just absolutely clears the waters, you know, you there is there is no room for muddying the waters at that point. Because you kind of can't get past it really. Until you you you know, until you answer that question. You kind of have to you can't get into like you say treatment, you can't get into all nutritional profile of this and what about the you know, you just can't it's a fantastic kind of angle. I love it. Thank you, when when writing the book, did you kind of feel the need to test your you know, with the material with with sort of some some vegans and non vegans was was there a kind of a process of that? Or was this kind of actually our experiences have shown us that this is this is the way to to kind of go with this and these are the these are the kind of the arguments we want to put out there or the the philosophy we want to share with you know, what was their kind of that that that testing period?
Emilia Leese 38:03
Oh, go Eva,
Jim Moore 38:07
go for you.
Eva Charalambides 38:08
I'm gonna say both. So much of it, like we said, has stemmed from real conversations, we've had real opportunities to take these workbook questions and have them out with people in the real world and see how they take them and see how they walk away with them. But then me also had the opportunity to kind of workshop it with people while it was being created as well.
Emilia Leese 38:32
Yeah, and I did workshops in London, at Black Cat Cafe, which I love. And in, in Berlin at Baum house. And we also wrote for you karate and some other publications. So we had some experience with how people were going to react to our writing. And, and that was very helpful. And then when we were putting together some drafts, oh, they definitely went out to a number of people, non vegans as well as vegans because both important and and, you know, got some really excellent feedback, which then we worked into the book. And, and don't forget also our publisher, the editors at our publisher unbound, they're not vegan. And so they were able to really, they did, they really did a great job in in guiding us through that process. the editing process really is a guide. And even when they when when they would challenge us on certain things where I was like, oh, they're totally wrong. And and so I was like, no Let's think about this. There's a reason so let's engage with that, even though they're totally wrong. And then you're like, now they're they're definitely not wrong. And then every time, you know, I think there was like, maybe one or two things that they were like, We were both like, No, no, definitely not. But, but yeah, mostly titles. Yes, exactly. But, um, so So yeah, it's so important. You know, I think people believe that the writing process is a solitary thing. And for some people, it may very well be that but there are so it's so much more than that. It's never a solitary thing. There are people who will help you along. And editors are worth their weight in gold. And so, so it's, it's a group effort in a way, obviously, it's your words, and your, your idea and so on. And you're doing the work, but somebody is pushing you along, and then guiding you along. Like GPS,
Eva Charalambides 41:08
big crowdfunding as well. I mean, you have to add that this book wouldn't happen if we didn't have over 300 supporters say, We want this book to happen. We are definitely a product of the the vegan and non vegan communities that support us at large. making it possible.
Emilia Leese 41:29
Yeah, very good point.
Jim Moore 41:31
The way you described there, the inner being of being a writer being, you know, for some people, they see it as this solitary, that absolutely chimes with me, you know, I have the image of like, a Kerouac Stipe type figure with a typewriter and a very long piece of paper that being tortured for months and not coming out. And then, you know, this horrible process of giving it to somebody, and then, you know, poring over it, and, you know, you disagreeing with them, and so on. And I'm particularly fascinated when when, when folks who've written a book like this from a very distinct angle, that's, you know, really talking about that the moment the experience of 1% of people. So I'm really intrigued in the kind of the, the non vegan reactions it was there any specific ones that you either thought that you mentioned, you're absolutely wrong there, and then came around to him. I'm intrigued if there's any particular ones that you can share, because I think that that's a fascinating notion to me.
Emilia Leese 42:34
Oh, in terms of comments from the editor, gosh, no, I can't remember. No, because that was, because there is a part of the process of like, basically being chained to your desk and like working through it. So I don't remember specifically. Um, yeah, I don't remember. Exactly, exactly, I'd have to look back through the the manuscript at that point in time to really remember because then, at that, because at that point that you realise when you engage with the comment, and you say, Okay, why are they saying this? And in what way and what am I trying to say, and you, then it then becomes part of you, because you, you've assimilated it, you've engaged with it, and you've worked through it. And, and you see the, the rationale behind it. But we've had lots of non vegans read the book, and lots of vegans read the book, and have had, you know, a book at this point, you know, now that it's now that it's out, and it's been very positive feedback from both sides. And sometimes the same. You know, it was it's as thought provoking for vegans, as it is for non vegans.
Eva Charalambides 44:08
Yeah, I'm gonna say it's my favourite part. It's the lightbulb moment. I don't care if you've been vegan for a long time, or you're new or you're never going to go vegan in your own mind. It's when somebody reaches out to us or leaves a comment saying, I never thought of it that way. I never thought of these issues. I never considered this possibility. I think somebody recently said, I didn't realise how vegan I was in my own sensibilities without being a vegan yet that I was like, Oh, wow. I wish everyone would take that away from reading this. That's great.
Emilia Leese 44:41
Yeah, I love that comment, comment. Yeah, it really stood out.
Jim Moore 44:46
From the, the, you know, considering the feedback you've had now, D you kind of feeling I suppose that that three year process this kind of almost hive mind where you've had people collaborate Writing with you at various points to come up with this, this this book. I imagine there's a huge sense of kind of gratification that it's you know, finally it's it's we've got to where we where we wanted to get to unconscious like the I suppose that we talked about social media and so on the community kind of ever evolving. Is that already sort of thoughts in your mind about where you know, a place to go next? Is there kind of an intention for appreciate just after after a three year period, putting yourself through what you've done? That's probably like a no, not right now. But is that is there some sort of thoughts are already starting to germinate?
45:40
Yes.
45:42
In short, yes, neither vacation,
Eva Charalambides 45:44
vacation, we need some time. I think especially since this is like, such a big, it's the UK launch that we've just had. And it's not as as much in North America yet. It feels like I had the big boom of gratification when the book was in my hand. But I'm still like, sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for it all to happen. So I don't feel like we're far enough away from the end of the new bear. But that being said, I just feel like, because so much of this material was written, you know, even a year ago. It's like, of course, there's new vegan things and new ideas that come up all the time. You just have to read the news, or see anything that's happening in the world and be like, I want to talk about it. But I just think we're we're definitely not at the point yet. Where we're like, gonna write it down.
Emilia Leese 46:37
Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes out and it really is. It's Yeah, I totally agree that that's such that's perfect. It really is a flattering question. That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, because it North America comes out in January. So So yeah, so we've got this this you know, this moment of being able to, to have it now. And it's it's really amazing and exciting. And lots of people in the states are already buying it because they've seen it. Or they've seen friends in the in the US who supported us in the in the crowdfunding for unbound. So so they're like, Wait a second, why don't I have that? That's very exciting. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, the the, it's the pre thinking process. It's that moment. For me, I think about things in in a sort of a really big way for a while. And then and then you're like, wait, this, this, this is the idea. And then you can like, you can build it from there. But now it's definitely in the miasma of pre thinking.
47:58
Yeah, I'll feel like Sorry, go on. No, go on either.
Eva Charalambides 48:03
I was gonna say we never wanted this to be like a one on one. But we get the question so much about what's next. I do feel like there are a lot of topics that are very individually personal to us, that we didn't really cover in depth. We just were like, what about this as an idea to introduce people to it? So certainly, I think, would there to be another think like a vegan think like a vegan too. There could be an expansion on what we're talking about, in addition to new things, it wouldn't have to be like a from scratch. Idea necessarily. Yeah.
Jim Moore 48:44
I appreciate the cruel question for for people who've poured their hearts and souls into something for three years for somebody to say, what's next? You know,
48:57
that's a great question, because it gets us thinking to
Jim Moore 49:02
maybe a podcast, then then you can be up to the minute I suppose all the time. So for folks who would love to get hold of a copy, and I've got one here, lucky enough to have one. So an author I really recommend folks do where would folks go about getting a copy of things like a vegan
Emilia Leese 49:25
so you can go and well, first of all, anywhere books are sold. But more specifically, you can go to our website and there will be a link to unbound where you can get the E book you can get signed copies. And those are very rare because obviously he was in Canada and I'm here and so we had these special bookplates made and we both signed them so that they are they can be in the book. So signed copies there as well as the hard drive just the regular unsigned hardcover. You can get the The book on Audible. Special Oh, sorry Maya, Maya, like watch decided it was listening to me. And so there's the audio book on Audible. And of course, your favourite bookshop. And if you are not in the UK or Australia or New Zealand, you can get the book from Book Depository and they have free worldwide shipping. And of course, you know, good, not not good read sorry. bookshop.com and of course amazon.com
50:46
things like a vegan.com incredible are easy
50:48
to remember.
Jim Moore 50:50
Absolutely what thank you so much for both for for joining me and, and giving us a bit of your time. And thank you so much as well for writing the book I think, you know, one of the things that's kind of struck me as I've gone through some some of the the chapters is even as someone who's you know, been in been in it for four years and had many conversations with lots of different vegan folks through the podcast, I still feel like there's there's these those lightbulb moments you mentioned either there's there's learning, there's conversation, there's even just the immersing yourself in some of the discussions and the thought processes. I think you land in a better place at the end of it and that can only be a good thing. So thank you. Thank you so much. Both of you
51:35
are delighted to hear that and thank you so much.
Jim Moore 51:39
Awesome well till next time till think like a vegan too. I'll speak to you bye