Alexandrea Lafata

Alexandrea Lafata

Sat, 5/1 1:21PM • 1:01:30

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, markets, animal, bit, vegan, eating, protest, world, slaughterhouses, area, activism, veganism, life, realise, documenting, horrified, based, milk, animal agriculture, pandemic

SPEAKERS

Jim Moore, Alexandra Lafata

Jim Moore  00:16

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours, of all things plant century. And this week is no different this week, I think is Episode 80. As you may know, I can never remember. And I'm going to be speaking with Alexandria love Fattah. She is a plant based hospitality specialist, over 10 years experience in the industry. Also an activist focused on animal rights lobbying legislation, as well as climate change human trafficking, food injustice, and Alexandria documents, the horrors of animal agriculture through slaughterhouse visits, save movement, work, as well as and an a particular subject for us today, as well as documenting live animal markets, particularly in the New York area. So we get into all of that, obviously, we we cover some of the pandemic based focus on wet markets, etc. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Alexandria Fattah.

Alexandra Lafata  01:55

I actually stopped eating meat from cartoon movies when I was a child. There was a movie Charlotte's Web. I saw it when I was about four, and I stopped eating meat immediately. Yeah, it was if you've ever seen Charlotte's Web, it's tragic. And so I kind of freaked out a bit, I asked my parents to explain it a bit more. And they explained it. That's how you get animals. You know, I mean, how that's how they produce meat and hamburgers and chicken that it comes from animals from forums, etc. That was it for me. So I haven't had meat since I was four. And that was 28 years ago. Fish came very shortly thereafter, I watched The Little Mermaid, there's a scene of the Little Mermaid where Sebastian is just running around the kitchen, while like a chef chased him with a knife. And that was that was about it. So I haven't had meat or seafood since I was four or five from cartoon movies. And I didn't, I didn't go fully vegan until probably my late teens, early 20s. Because even up until that time, I had a misconception about dairy. And I avoided dairy when I could so I never ate eggs. I never drank milk or anything like that. But I would cheat and have a slice of cake from time to time. So I was predominantly vegan until my 20s. But I knew I was plant based. I shouldn't say vegan, because I really wasn't fully committed to not having animal byproducts. And then I educated myself a bit more when I hit my 20s about the reality of dairy. You know, I don't know how things are in the UK, but especially in the US we are it's very ingrained in us in our schooling, that dairy is very, very important for you and then it's incredibly healthy for you. At no point Have you ever taught that it's food for a baby cow and that that baby is taken from their mother and you're stealing that milk. This is nothing part of our learning process. And there was also a huge ad campaign here. Athletes celebrities, models, you know, they got milk campaign, I'm sure there was something similar, but they're with different, you know, celebrities that were relevant in that country. And so it really wasn't until my late 20s that I fully understood that I shouldn't even be like cheating from time to time and how morally apprehensible I found the entire situation. And then in my like early 20s to maybe for the last 10 years I got involved animal rights activism. I've been super strict ever since.

04:21

I'm amazed at the level of empathy of a four year old watching a Disney film.

04:27

I'm surprised it forever surprises me that more people don't go vegetarian or vegan or plant based from cartoon movies as children. There's Dumbo which shows the exploitation at zoos and there is you know the Fox and the Hound which is a heartbreaking look at hunting and Bambi which also was a heartbreaking look at hunting and I always watch these movies was really horrified and I would cry afterwards. Like I didn't find them to be joyful, particularly. And my parents didn't push me I I think to an extent they probably assumed it was a face, but they indulged me and so I think that was also a big part of it too is that I was very unnerved by it and my parents didn't try to force me to consume it anyway they just started cooking two meals for me and working around it.

05:20

Did they? Do you think they picked up any of it at the time? Or you know, did they did they kind of think like you said they thought it was a phase but did they kind of pick up any of that empathy or maybe some of the other arguments the healthy environment, any anything else come from it.

05:36

Um, my mother was a bit more amenable to it, she had been a vegetarian for most of her life. So I think when she started cooking, kind of that separate meal for me, she started eating that a little bit more. Of course, I wish that they had jumped on board with me for empathy since but it was more of a if she feels that way will allow her to feel that way.

06:02

Yeah. And how about you know, you mentioned that dairy was deeply ingrained in the sort of standard American diet, it certainly the similar over here, you know, I remember, as a child, it was a great privilege to be the milk monitor in primary school. So that meant that you can't to, you got to carry the tray of milk over to the kids for the morning snack, and everyone got to have their milk and I also remember there being a couple of kids who were lactose intolerant, or just, you know, people and not baby cows, whichever you want to call it. But you know, there were there was lactose intolerance and they were always treated a bit oddly, so it was kind of a bit weird. So that you know, you mentioned there about the Got Milk campaign so it definitely resonates and I think that still goes on in in mainstream culture you know, in the UK now I'm sure it does in the US. But as a appreciate this wasn't a leap that you'd necessarily taken. But you were still you're still taking the leap of not eating meat and so on. And that's so intrinsic into kind of particularly US and UK culture. You know, what was school life like, being the kid who didn't eat me

07:19

interesting. Um, I even at that time, like I wouldn't drink milk so I would say I was lactose intolerant sometimes just to get around it but even then I wouldn't drink milk or eat an omelette or anything like that. So I was still pretty strict. It was interesting. kids would often try to sneak meat into my meals like when I wasn't looking teachers at some point had approached my parents and said you know, it isn't healthy but you know, you're allowing her to not eat me and so people had actually approached my parents you know, telling them that they were not doing what was best for me by allowing me to not eat baby cow food and you know, rotting animal carcasses essentially which as an adult you I look back and I'm just like how absurd but my parents stuck to their guns on it I was very lucky. But it was interesting because I never even met another vegetarian until I was probably like my last year of high school or in college. It was a different time you know, now I have tonnes of friends and we're vegan plant based, you know, vegetarian, all the other tyrians and with people identify, but back then it was just very, very strange that I did not eat meat or cheese or when I would go like I was had to pack separate food. I never had a school lunch in my life. You know, when I would go to parties, my mom would send me with my own food, which everyone thought was so crazy, which nowadays like so normal, like, you know, who was you know, gluten intolerances and all these things, so it's very normalised now to kind of tell your life, your dietary restrictions, but back in 1995 it was not I would take like cheese off of my pizza at pizza parties and just see like the bread with a tomato sauce on it. Everyone looked at me like I was tragically bizarre, but what's wonderful now is that there's actually meatless Mondays in New York City Schools. Wow. So it's done such a complete there's been such a complete shift from the time that I was in elementary school and junior high in high school till now right now they're encouraging children to eat plant based on there is, you know, meatless Mondays and things like that.

09:33

Tell us a little bit about you know, how you got from from there. And then, you know, obviously taking the leap to veganism, and then ultimately to the place where you thought Actually, my personal veganism isn't isn't enough, almost like I need to take a step further into the world of activism. I need to do something. And what was that journey like?

09:57

I think I also, I think A lot of it also had to do with movies that you watch, I think you often watch movies and we're always drawn to particular characters that see something that's wrong and then they do something about it and we admire that in a sense, but when it comes to our daily lives we think that like our own actions are enough but we don't take that extra step to really put our money where our mouth is, so to speak. I suppose that's the best expression I can really think for it. And I went to my first Peter protests refer. Right when I got into college, I went to one and I realised this is a way where my personal choices Yeah, it helps Of course, and I know that every little bit helps me it lessens demand, etc. But I figured if I have the stomach for it, and I feel comfortable going out there and doing these things, then I really should be taking advantage of the fact that I have the opportunity to do more. And then I eventually got involved with the safe movement going to vigils at slaughterhouses. I went to my first one and I realised that if I had the stomach for it, which they're not for everybody going to live markets and slaughterhouses for vigils. But I realised that if I had the capacity to do it, that it was important that I should to get that footage out there. And it's one of those things where you kind of once you go to these things, once you realise like, okay, like, I'm going to do this forever. So it wasn't like it's like a long, a long journey to get there. It was just once I went to one protest, I was like, Okay, this is part of your life. Now we have to keep looking out for more protests. And once I went to a vigil, it was like, okay, we're gonna come every two weeks, Thursday morning, and this is part of, you know, your routine Now,

11:43

you mentioned is not for everyone. And I've heard lots of lots of people say similar things that, you know, that they they are, whilst they might participate, and they get involved. They're also kind of very conscious that, you know, psychologically, it's not, it's not for everyone, it'd be good to hear a little bit more about, about that, you know, how you perhaps have overcome that appreciate everybody's got their personal stories about how you've personally, you know, found the stomach for it, if you like, because I imagine the first time you did it, I can't imagine that it would have just come to you, you know, and you'd have been fine. You know, like, I'd imagine they would have left a mark. So yeah, it'd be good to understand a little bit about your, your journey from from the psychological standpoint.

12:33

Yeah, the the first visually when she was actually it was pretty intense, um, we had been to this little, there was a slaughterhouse market, it's right in a residential area. And we had gone there, and we'd seen a truck that came in, it was very eye opening, just seeing like, these, seeing the animals in person, the condition that they were in, and they get pulled in. And then at a certain point in time, everybody had to leave and I decide to stick around for another 10 minutes because we heard that there might be another shipment coming. And the truck actually was pulled around the the block and I approached the truck driver, I asked if I could spend some time with the animals and he let me um, so I was by myself really was my first like, real interaction everybody else had left. So it was just me and a truckload of sheep and baby goats. I cried a lot. That time, I've since become, I hate to say by become very numb to it to a certain extent, and I don't cry as much now and I've kind of just learned to learn to deal with it, unfortunately. But the first time was, it was pretty brutal. There were a lot of babies on the truck in particular, and knowing that you actually can't do anything to stop what's going to happen. So the inevitable is happening, it's going to happen within the next hour. You're here, there's just this, you know, still barrier between the two of you, you know, between you and the animals, and there's nothing you can do. And I think that's the worst part is seeing their suffering. But not having the power, unfortunately, because of laws and regulations to stop the horror that you know what's happening. Um, so that was particularly brutal, especially because of that slaughter house. The kill floor is right up against the street. So you can actually hear the animals banging up against the wall, and you can hear them crying, as it happens. So there's really no it's an it was an interesting setup, because it wasn't an industrial slaughterhouse. It was somewhere where I could be on a public street and I'm right up against the wall where there's a kill floor, and you can hear it. So that was the first time was particularly rough for me. Quite a lot, quite a lot when I got home, but at the very least, I was able to do document that they existed and that they went through it so you feel like very helpless at first which is a natural instinct because you can't you don't have the power to stop it but I found a little bit of solace in the fact that at the very least I was able to give them water I sing lullabies to them to try to just calm them down or soothe them a little bit pet them I document it photos and videos try to get it out there so at least their stories get told. Um but with that being said I have I was surprised at the tolerance I had for it because at no points I think like I can't go back or I can never do that again My first thought was when is there another vigil but it isn't for everybody and i don't i think that I recognise that everybody has their own strengths Everyone has their own tolerance levels everyone also has their own background of trauma. So I personally don't have a traumatic background I've never had any physical abuse or any mental abuse or anything like that. So I wasn't triggered in any way I was lucky enough to not have that in my life but for somebody who has lived in those you know, has had experiences like that this could be incredibly damaging potentially to their you know, to their mental health. And so I think I just recognise that if I had the capacity for it then I should continue with it

16:19

Yeah, completely understand and we'll party because those are you know, incredibly traumatic experiences and you documenting like you say that those lives existed and and getting that that story told and and out there I think is you know, incredibly important on that note was there you know, I imagine like and what year specifically was this were we in an era of social media by this point you know, what point did you did you start almost feeling the effect of being able to post that footage somewhere and almost feel an instant reaction back was that at the very beginning or did this kind of social media bit come slightly later

17:04

um, this was already an age of Instagram at this point. And so I immediately uploaded things to Instagram that day, and by the end of the day, you know, I had 14 DMS back of like this is horrible like you know people who were vegan and plant based you know obviously have a natural inclination to like reach out to you when you post up like that like How are you this is heartbreaking but it was also I was surprised at how many people in my life who are like diehard court carnivores who have always given me You know, a lot of flack for being vegan reached out like oh, or like I that made me cry or I haven't been able to like I was able to eat my lunch today and so I was able to see this like immediate reaction which I also think is was probably part of the reason to why I decided like okay, this is for me like I'm gonna keep doing it because with the age of social media there really was this like instantaneous reaction and it was able to get out there so quickly.

18:02

Yeah, I guess that was some you know, it'd be good to get your view on this. Do you think that's kind of accelerated the Save movement the activist movement in the in the world of veganism and and and generally speaking Have you you know, had positive experiences off the back of that acceleration? Or have you also found you know, in this world of polarisation that actually it's just it's also come with almost a secondary trauma in the you know, you put yourself out there and you're gonna get a lot of heat back what's your experience been like that you know, in that world?

18:44

Definitely a mix of both um there's there are certainly people who see it and they are horrified by what they see and they take that step you know, not that step but they take that second to kind of like oh, like what did I just see? And they're very I wouldn't say that they're thrilled by what you've shown them but at least they are inquisitive or curious and then there's there's so much support from like the vegan and plant based community here especially in New York and New Jersey. So on that aspect, it's really good because you ever had one of the community that like kind of rallies around you and a lot of people have positive feedback to it with that being said, not everybody is thrilled that I post not everyone is thrilled that I post that a lot of the my messages on Instagram my DMS are very very interesting. There's some people who say you know it's wonderful that you would go and you know, get that footage out there and then there are just people who send you just Long You know, paragraphs going in on you a lot of like threats. So mixed bag

19:57

was a bit of a shock tea. Oh, Are you? Are you kind of prepared for it? Yeah.

20:03

I, you know, I as someone who hasn't had me since they were four and has always been very vocal about it. So even when I was like birthday party like a 10th birthday party, I was like, that's that's me that was a dead animal. So I've always been pretty vocal about it. And it's always had a mixed reaction. So I very much anticipated. Once I started putting it on social media, it would be the same thing.

20:26

Yeah, did you have to develop a different level of resilience because I'd imagine like, you know, I'm just thinking back, when you're 10 is difficult enough, you know, at a party, being being any, any form of differences. A kid growing up, as we all know, is, is set upon by the group. Kids can be mean, and, but that's one aspect. But social media is like that on, you know, on steroids sort of thing. It's, it's, it can be that 10 fold and people particularly probably even worse because they're hiding behind distance a Wi Fi connection and their screen. So was there another level of resilience even though you know, like you say, you'd been sort of training yourself since four years old, really in in, you know, I'm going to be an activist and I'm going to, I'm going to have my voice heard. But was there a different level of resilience that you had to develop, you know, with it being kind of coming in unfiltered into your kind of home into your direct space in front of you on your phone?

21:35

I think for the most part, I am not tragically impressed by cowardice, which is usually what you know, the keyboard warriors are who send me those messages. So I think I try to keep that attitude about it. I think a little bit more in the beginning, I was probably a little bit more taken back by, like the level of like, violent threats I would receive. Um, so I think at first it was just like a bit, you're a bit taken back by it. But it was something I like very quickly acclimated to it was just like, cool.

22:12

It wasn't gonna stop you

22:14

know, it, you know, it didn't particularly bother me so much. I think again, I expected at night also, I had a bit of a tougher tolerance to Iran. You know, I managed a nightclub for five years. And I would have just, you know, grown men scream at me on the weekends, if they would get you know, they were thrown out for being excessively drunk. And they were just so I think that my tolerance just over time

22:38

was, was built up. Yeah.

22:40

Yeah. So it.

22:48

No, no, I get it. I get it totally. On the positive side, and you mentioned that you sort of alluded to it a little bit. But I imagine you found a bit of a community again, thinking about like you said, there was a long period of time in your upbringing where you had met another vegetarian, let alone You know, encountered anybody who was who was vegan, and then to go into this world of activism, saves bearing witness, pizza protests, etc. Did you find a community you know, and was that easily found? Were you easily welcomed?

23:22

Yeah, I was. very pleasantly surprised actually, how quickly I ended up forming relationships with people years ago that I'm still very close with. It was my my remember my first visual, the organiser of that particular visual was so so nice to me. When she saw me walking down the street. She was like, Are you here for us? I was like, yeah, you know, like, she was so excited. There was like a new person who wanted to come, um, they introduced me to everybody, we all exchanged numbers immediately. And then since then, I am a member of a few other organisations like borders for animal rights, safe movement as well. And it was it was very, it was interesting. It was kind of an interesting way to go from all of my friends. everyone eats meat, everyone's eating everything and then to be able to go out with people who were like, Oh, no, we're going to go to a vegan restaurant. It was like the heavens opened up. So it was it was very was a relief almost.

24:25

Yeah. Now Could I imagine it would have been you know, just just the thought of being able to to not be the awkward vegan in a group when that when was you know, you're choosing where to go for dinner. Like just just even that comfort of like, we kind of know where we're going. You know, the genre of restaurant isn't up for debate, it will be a vegan restaurant, but which one?

24:47

right which is something I never it was always like pulling teeth trying to get, you know, my friends to go to a strictly vegan or vegetarian restaurant and I have a few of my close friends who from time to time would cave and they would indulge me But as the rule of thumb, you know, we're going they're going to a sushi restaurant or a steak house or this place that's like, fantastic. And out of principle, I would always get a separate check. And I was never in the sense of like, I'm nickel and diming and don't want to like just evenly split the bill with anybody. It was more like my Oh, like protest and be like, I'm not helping you pay for that check in. No, ma'am. So it was nice to just go to a restaurant even just like equally split, like split a bill five ways if you're with five people, because I didn't mind putting money towards whatever everyone had or their appetisers and their drinks. It doesn't that doesn't bother me. It was just it was an it was just a completely even different dining experience and not having to eat my food across from, you know, an animal that I had just, I remember there was one time I went out for my friend's birthday dinner. And I'd gone to a vigil that morning. And we had a lot of cows there. And they were in really rough condition. just awful, awful morning. And then we all went out to my friend's birthday dinner, and two got hamburgers, and she got steaks. And so I'm sitting there and like that morning, I've been singing lullabies and giving water to them and crying. And now I'm sitting across from people who are eating that animal. And so I would say that finding a community was just more of a relief for me than anything because it it just means simple things like going out for drinks that weren't any, you know, appetisers so much simpler.

26:34

Yeah. Okay, I understand that. And to be honest with you, I never really thought about it from that dynamic. But you're absolutely right, that you there's an extra layer of, of trauma, almost, it's brought back every time you then have to interact with the rest of the omnivorous world, the fact that no one cares, you know that feeling?

26:57

Yeah, I'm like, I wonder, like, you know, was this cow sourced from, you know, the live market, we were out this morning, Probably not, but there's a possibility and like that, knowing that with just like, it made the entire experience so unappetizing. And it was, you know, as much as you love your friends who are not, you know, vegan and plant based, and you want to spend time with them, and you want to socialise with them. There's such a disconnect that I'm experiencing, and I'm looking at everything from just like such a different lens. So I think having I think it's really important to for people who are even just getting into eating plant based and or trying to go vegan, or trying to get more into activism to at least, you know, establish some form of relationship with a few people who have already done it, because it makes it a lot easier.

27:55

Yeah, yeah. 100% It does. Absolutely. There's a point I wanted to go back to you. You mentioned a couple of times in your activism, and I've seen it on your, on your social media profiles, you documenting live markets in New York. And the reason I particularly wanted to draw attention to this and get your viewpoint on it. And I know we talked about it just before we started recording, but in the last year, obviously there's been a real spotlight on wet markets and you know, there's the, the source of the pandemic is been essentially sort of pinpointed down outside of some conspiracy theorist, but has been pinpointed down to a Wetmore market in Wu Han and so I think people would be surprised to learn based on the the mainstream media narrative that these markets on the exclusive right of of China, I'd love to get your view on it, your experience with it and your perspective on that mainstream narrative.

29:12

I was horrified first and foremost, I was very horrified with the very racist reaction that people have had. And this idea that this is something that only comes from Asia and this is something that's only done there and that's just simply not true. What markets live markets markets like that they're in every country this is nothing unique to one you know, area or region. And I was really disappointed by the way that the media kind of covered it to say that like because they would often refer to it as like the the wet markets that you predominantly see in China and parts of Asia and they kept kind of making it seem like this was something unique to you know, other countries. continents and not the United States. And I even to this day, we've barely seen any media coverage of. Okay, so if this is how the pandemic could arise from this type of market, what about the ones that we have here that are just as filthy, just as unregulated. And to pinpoint that on, you know, one country or what, you know, is such a, I don't think don't even know the word for it, it is, I think it's incredibly irresponsible, first and foremost, to constantly feed into that narrative. It's dangerous, and it's simply not true. And I think that it's such a missed opportunity as well, because the entire world is finally aware of like, okay, you know, animal markets pose a huge risk to public safety, and whether or not you know, people are interested in you know, cutting animal consumption out of their lives for health reasons. Or if they're doing it for you know, ethical reasons like I do, I think health is also one aspect that I think everyone can kind of agree on, to a certain extent. And, you know, to not acknowledge that almost every country probably every country I'm saying almost every country because I don't know for sure, but I would, I would it's a safe assumption that a predominant amount of countries and continents all over the world have these white markets, live markets and even so much so that in you know, kind of the animal into the animal activism community I mean, we do not even use the term white market anymore we simply say live animal market, because unfortunately, the media took this term what market and made it sound so specific to China, like they don't exist everywhere else that we try to use the term like live animal market now to show like, no, they're everywhere, and you cannot blame and that, you know, applicants so specific to one country when that simply isn't true. And I think I hoped that a global pandemic caused from eating animals would cause you know, every country to be a little bit more introspective, and say, well, do we have them here? Do we have this? Do we have enough strict regulations? Are they being inspected? They probably aren't being inspected that much. You guys been to some you know, at least here in New York, New Jersey, I have been to live markets where they're they're hosing blood and faeces into public sewer systems. So you know the next pandemic or the next you know outbreak it could vary just as easily have come from New Jersey or New York and I think that this it's such a missed opportunity for the Royals not to be saying like well what are we doing in our you know, specific areas that could also contribute to a global pandemic like this? And I think that the narrative that the media has come up with is I think it's been proven how dangerous it is. Um, and

33:01

I think it's very heartbreaking that you know, some people are being targeted simply because this narrative has been like that, you know, this market is specific to one country and that this is how this all started when the reality is, you know, they're everywhere. I've been to live markets I went to one in New Jersey and right in front of me, they they hosed blood faeces, urine into a public sewer system. They had animals out on public, a public sidewalk in a residential area, and these they were chickens and they were very very obviously sick. There was you know, pus coming out of their eyes, open sores in or on offices everywhere. That poses a huge public safety risks to that area as well. And so I think the hope I think the one positive thing I think that I've seen out of it is that at least people in my life have become more interested in learning about the live animal markets here like I've had you know, a few friends you know, reach out to me and they're like, well could you know, do you think that like anything like this could ever happen could ever start from like the places that you go to? And I'm like, absolutely, of course it could. There's no the regulations It doesn't matter what country you're in as far as I'm concerned, the regulations are very very lacks if not essentially non existent. You know, there really is no regulations. And the industries have also had a very long time of conducting business in a very unregulated way and they feel very empowered by it because it is allowed to slide um, you know, I've gone to live markets where I've had blood and faeces thrown at me by the workers and they're not concerned at all because as far as they're concerned, like they're allowed to do this.

35:00

Just just shocking, really, what your view on the that the why that mainstream narrative hasn't been adopted? Do you think it's as simple as there's a profit motive there of and the kind of the mainstream media is kind of in on that if you like that, if we start turning the spotlight on to sort of Western animal agriculture, whether it be through a live animal market in New York or any other aspect of factory farming, etc, then the whole sort of House of Cards topples down. Do you think it's that combined with racism? What's your kind of your view?

35:47

I think there's so many reasons and so many factors. I think, you know, I think a part of it too, is that there's, I think, a reluctancy to be a bit introspective. And I think it's a lot easier to say, like point and be like, oh, what happened over there, didn't have this happen here. And I think that that's just this innate, very unfortunate perspective, that is kind of continually perpetrated. And I think a lot of it also has to do with advertising. You know, I watched the news. And you know, you're going to see a few commercials by, you know, major fast food companies and major meat companies and things like that. And so I you know, I know to an extent that does play into it. There's always been a reluctancy, I think, for the media to to also go after the animal agriculture industry.

36:45

Let me put it this way, we have said I personally sent really brutal footage to a tonne of media outlets, and especially when everything with this happen just kind of say, like, hey, like we're talking about, you know, you're talking about what they call wet markets. But what you know, I like to refer to as a live animal market simply because I think that they've made that term incredibly dangerous. Yeah, um, here's some footage of one in the area that you cover, like, this is your this is like your local news channels, and you want to reach out to all of them. Like, I filmed this two weeks ago, this happened here. This is something that's probably worth exploring, especially given the interest right now. And it's always crickets back already. Mm hmm. You know, I once in a while there have been a few organisations here that have actually made some headway with the process. And this is the most surprising to me is that I'm TMZ. Do you have to TMZ? Okay, yeah. They have actually been surprisingly receptive to that footage. There are a few people here, think something to save movement, and some from a group slaughter free ny seeds. And from a group New York class, they actually reached out to TMZ. And TMZ actually reposted on their social media on their website, footage from these markets. And saying, like, you know, they were shockingly, the celebrity news network. They were the ones that No, nobody was more shocked than I buy this. But they were the ones that were actually the most receptive to it. And they were the ones that posted, you know, footage from another group, I think out in California somewhere. And they post it from here in New York. And they, for some reason, seem to understand like, okay, there's a worldwide pandemic cause from animal markets, what about the ones here? And so I'm continually surprised that TMZ a celebrity news network understood the importance of this as to where I feel like most major news networks that you know, predominately deal with worldwide news, let's call it not necessarily like celebrity news, have been so shy to address it.

39:02

That is quite shocking. My only recollection of tn tn zet. Well, I feel like I shouldn't say TMZ because we would say Zed, but you know, we say we say z differently. So my only recollection of them is like covering Michael Jackson's death. You know that that is quite surprising that they want to entertain that.

39:29

Yeah, so I think that was a pleasant surprise for a lot of us in the community was like, Okay, fantastic. Fantastic. Like I I so yeah, I think that that also shows to how I think for me too, that also amplified how hard it is to get these major news networks to actually cover topics like this because they were reluctant to but you have TMZ that was open to doing it.

39:59

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and you're experiencing a being outside of a live animal market, like you say in your, you risk experiencing hostility from the folks who work there and so on. And kind of, you know, I would have thought that would be expected. But I'm intrigued as to you know, these are, like you say, situated often in residential areas, in places where people are going to and from work people are walking by, things are going on, it's part of a community. What's the reaction like that you've seen from from those folks? Like, because I imagine like, if no one's pointing it out, I could imagine a world in which it's kind of like wallpaper to people, you know, they walk past it every day. So it's like, well, it is what it is kind of thing. It's not, I was not like the one that was on the telly with the pandemic, it's a different one, because it's here, you know, that kind of mindset. But when somebody starts pointing something out, somebody stood there, protesting, filming, you know, being quite vocal in it, I imagine starts to kind of jog the the mindset of the people walking past our elder, and there's something odd going on here. What's happening? Have you have you experienced anything from the locals or local residents, etc, saying, What are you pointing out? Can we have a conversation about it, you know, any of that kind of interaction?

41:32

Yeah. So, unfortunately, where these live markets, and slaughterhouses are situated in residential areas. It's predominantly, and I hate to use this expression, but it's predominantly, you know, like a lower income area. For example, you know, I live on the south shore of Staten Island, they would never let one go up here. And so the unburying so it starts off already by being an incredibly exploitative process just a month from where they're situated. Right. Um, so that's like, a really also important factor is how, you know, you're not going to find, you know, they don't have a live market, you know, on the Upper East Side, for example, here, but they'll put them in other residential areas. And it's kind of like, well, if it's safe enough to be there, then why won't you put one in these, you know, posh zip codes, like that, you know, and so that's also a factor that plays into it. And for the most part, the residents are not happy that they're there. And again, I can't speak for all the residents, but most of the residents that we encounter, have actually had a lot of conversations, and they've approached us, and they've said, you know, the smell is always horrible, or there's always blood in the streets, or I have to have my daughter walk the long way around, because there is, you know, blood or there's, you know, a dead chicken carcass on the sidewalk. And so I think that that's what's interesting, too, is that for the most part, the residents aren't particularly thrilled, because they're the ones that are actually experiencing the smell from it, and the garbage dumps that are left outside, and they hear the screams and things of that nature. And so for the most part, you know, the direct residents in those areas are very welcoming, almost us. Kind of like, you know, I've spoken to a lot who were like, yeah, like, this is, this is awful, this is horrible. But then there are other times where we're at animal markets where they're so inconspicuously put into an area that people actually don't even realise that they're there sometimes. And then when we do tell them, they're like, What do you mean? Like, I live a block away? What do you mean, and then I'll be like, well, come around to the back with me, I'll walk around to the back of the block, and there's just blood everywhere. And they're just horrified because it's going into I can't stress it enough how many times I've seen this get hosed into public city sewer systems, and just what a immense threat to public health offices, you know, even if you take the ethics, you know, the animal ethics out of it. And so, we've predominantly been met by people who if they do know it's there, they don't love it, for obvious reasons. And the ones who are the other markets that are a bit more conspicuous. People are shocked and shocked in like a horrified way when we explain like, oh, like this is a full slaughterhouse and tannery. And then you kind of like, walk a few feet with them, and you show them a gelatin dump like this, these massive, massive bins, that they're just doing these constant constant dumps into and they live two blocks away, and so they're usually shocked and horrified. And so I think the more often than not The people in the community are kind of receptive to us being there. You know, again, not everyone, some people who live in those areas are also patrons of establishments. And so, you know, but with that being said, I've never really had, I've never had an negative or a heated interaction with somebody who lived nearby them, even if we do have, you know, if they walk by me, they go in and they buy something and they leave, we don't, we don't try to get into an argument with them or anything like that. So for the most part, everyone's amenable to it, and if they do live there, and they support that, you know, that market as a patron, we kind of just allow them to go in and out without having an interaction. Because we don't want to alienate the neighbourhood as well,

45:54

totally. Yeah, no, I can, I can completely understand the, it's not surprising to or not shocking to me, but it's kind of all fall into here. And it's just kind of exactly what you'd expect really that like you say that there's a almost a purposeful placement of these in, in areas where there is a lack of sort of socio economic power, if you like, within the community, because they know that you know, the people there won't have the social influence to be able to reject this protest it you have the ear of their local council people, their senators, whoever it may be, they haven't got that. So it's, it's, I suppose more evidence of the of a of an oppressive system, not just from an animal welfare point of view, but you know, on people with lower incomes, you could probably link this to education system, there's is kind of all systems can this all this, this sort of all systems are oppression linked kind of piece there, I think, is what I'm kind of hearing from that, that that one example.

47:17

Yeah, and I also too, it's also very important, um, what I mean, like when I talk about live markets, also to say, you know, it's also very easy to demonise the people who work at these live markets and slaughterhouses. And I am very much somebody who tries to also be cognizant and aware of the fact that many of these people do not work there by choice, this is oftentimes this is, you know, whatever their life situations are, this is the only job that they can get to provide for their family. And, you know, animal agriculture also exploits people, and it does exploit the workers as well. And I think, you know, and I understand kind of the gut reaction sometimes is to be like, well, who works there like these people must be monsters, etc. And to kind of like wanna yell at the people yell at them when we get there and stuff like that, and have these interactions with them. But you know, it's really important to to kind of think like, Okay, well how did this person end up working here in the first place? It was this their first job did they think when they were younger, that this is what they couldn't wait to do? Probably not? They could there are some people who do enjoy this line of work, but yeah, some people are, are in situations where they cannot obtain other forms of employment, and they have to feed themselves and their families. And so you know, the, the entire situation is complicated, to say the least, and so I always try when talking about going to live markets and slaughterhouses that a lot of the workers are also kind of also exploited. And oftentimes, this is their only means of income. And so I tried to develop a, as good of a rapport as possible as I can with the people who work there. doesn't always work that way. I have had workers chasing with an electric kettle rod, um, I have, you know, blood faeces thrown at me, you know, a lot of threats, you know, like, violence rights, sexual threats, things of that nature. But I've also had workers who have kind of expressed to me like, I don't want to be here. I have to be here. Um, and there are, you know, I won't say too much about him, but there was one worker in particular who, you know, he's differently abled, and he expressed to me like, please don't think I'm a monster like, I can't, nobody else will hire me. And so it's also important One kind of talking about live markets that, you know, animals are exploited by animal agriculture, humans are exploited by animal agriculture, the planet is exploited by animal agriculture. And agriculture just explains every one in everything. Um, and so the hope, at least for me is that there will be job opportunities created for people who do work out these live markets in slaughterhouses to get out of this line of work, because it's easy to say, like, you know, they should quit and find anything else to do. But unfortunately for some of them, that that other job opportunity doesn't exist.

50:36

Yeah. 100% again, the, the systems the, the areas that when that these these operations are placed in it's, there's a purpose to it, you know, it's it's designed, whether slowly or quickly and deliberately. It's designed, you know,

50:59

yeah, and so it's, it's, it's, it's always interesting every time you go it's a bit different. Like I've said, I've had workers who have been lovely to me while I'm there as lovely as you know, the experience can be and, you know, people in the area who have been, you know, grateful that were there, but you've also I've also been, like I said, Chase with an electric cattle rod and you know, had customers come in and, you know, personally under their breath and stuff like that. So it's, it's, you know, it's a mixed, but like everything in life, you know, there's a lot of dynamics and other things that play into it. And I think that, especially for the, you know, animal activism community, like moving forward, I just think it's so important to not leave the exploitation of workers out of the conversation. Um, especially like, for somebody like me, you know, I'm, you know, I'm a very privileged white woman. And so for somebody like me to come in to these areas and demonise people who work there, that would be so out of touch. And so you know, it's something that would be easy for somebody like me to say, but you know, you have to really look at the full situation and how so many other of these like socio economic factors play in?

52:21

Yeah, absolutely. You really do. And I think it would be easy for folks who want to get into activism to like you say, to jump into it with all the the sort of vim and vigour and excitement of I'm going to change the world here and and perhaps make some missteps in that and and, and target the the individuals who are ultimately also part of that same system, and don't necessarily want to be there themselves or be doing what they're doing. I think it's a really valid point, you're making sort of sage advice, I think, for anybody going into that world or thinking about it, we sort of actually leads me on to like to get your perspective on this and just conscious of time, but I really appreciate your own your view on this. So I'm going to ask anyway. So there's obviously been and it's fantastic, a huge rise in veganism over the last few years perpetuated by some amazing kind of documentaries and social media and bits and pieces, there's lots of stuff influences, and then things like this, that have that have perhaps taken people on a bit of a journey towards veganism. And I'm thinking of, you know, whether it be that vegan influenced chef or whatever, all that kind of a Netflix documentary and all this kind of thing. And it's got a lot of people sort of on the bus, if you like, but I don't necessarily see lots of people on the activist bus. I see lots of people on the kind of, I've kind of done it now. I'm here. And I've, you know, I'm eating chemo, and I put chia seeds on my porch now. So you know, I've pretty I've pretty much done it. We're going to save the world now. And as long as I repost the old story then great. Well, I just like to get your view on it because because of that, that I appreciate I came out with a very biassed cynical sort of perspective in the question. But I would genuinely like to get your view on whether that's there's there's a goodness to that insofar as we need to normalise we need to mainstream veganism. Or do you think actually we need to be a little bit more aware that we're still just 1% of the world's population?

54:53

Um, yeah, you know, it's it's obviously tragically exciting to see More people posting and it becoming such a part of mainstream culture because that will have a direct effect on how companies make decisions moving forward. And, you know, companies like ad funded and topics of conversation and all of that is I'm thrilled love just, you know, over the moon about all of it. However, I think that everyone in particular has something that they're good at, or something that they can bring to the table that they should also be doing in addition to, you know, changing your diet. So if you see things like, sorry, that is so, um, so if you, you know, you watch things like ccrc, for example, and you cc spirit scene, you realise, like, okay, maybe you're finally done with seafood Fingers crossed, that the entire world is going to watch it and yeah, you know, act on what they see and make those daily changes in their lives. But I also think it would also be so much more impactful if everyone who decided to make the switch to being plant based, did something in their own lives that kind of just plays off of what they're good at, you know, like you said, chefs, and seeing more chefs posts, and that's incredible. So if you're in the food space, utilise that platform to talk more about the benefits of plant based eating and things of that nature. If you see things that you don't love, but you want to get involved in activism, but maybe you don't have the time and a lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to take off of their job to go to a protest or you know, maybe public situations like that, you know, make them personally uncomfortable. There are so many different organisations that have online action alerts where you can you know, sign out onto protests autofill emails to your local politicians, you know, in support or opposition or you know, a new law that's coming up, or, you know, if you're really into fitness and that's kind of, you know, your thing and that's your platform also emphasise you know, the benefits of you know, plant based eating when it comes to athletic performance and encourage people to watch Game Changers as well. And so my cynical nature in me tells me well it's great that people want to stop eating any you know, you repost something but we need to do more. But the cautiously optimistic version of me is very much so hopes that in addition to making those daily changes in your lifestyle and your daily eating, that you will kind of capitalise on whatever your personal strength your personal hobby or you know, whatever else it is you do in life and also incorporate into that

57:58

I love that bring bring you bring a skill to the table if you like whatever that is,

58:03

right, whatever that is, everyone has you know, everyone has completely different things, you know, not everybody is wants to go to a protest like me and scream or go to a slaughterhouse. Some people are really great at you know, they're really interested in politics. And if you're interested in politics, there's so much that you can do right now without, you know, working for government or things like that, like I'm involved with a group voters for animal rights here in New York City. And I was a member of their voter election, you know, their election team this year. And so we interviewed over 300 candidates who are running for city council and all the things that we have all the elections we have for 2021. And I didn't have to have, you know, a background in law or politics to do it. You know, you're approaching it as a constituent who wants to know where your local official stands on, you know, the pertinent matters that are going on when it regards to animals in your area. I mean, again, I I've learned so so much just over the last year by listening and sitting in on the zoom calls and learning and seeing how polit the pala you know, politics work and a little bit more about how legislation like the legislative process works. And so I also think that sometimes people are a bit sceptical to get involved in a certain form of activism because they don't have a lot of experience in it. But I think things are so designed to be inclusive and to recruit as many people as possible now that there are so many more opportunities for people to get involved in ways that they had never anticipated before.

59:33

Definitely, absolutely. But Alex, it's been amazing chatting to you. And I definitely want to get as many of the links to places that you would recommend people start if they're interested in any of the things that you've talked about. And taking that next step. We'll definitely post all of those in the show notes. But, but thank you so much for your time. It's been it's been awesome chatting with you.

59:57

I'm very much appreciate you having me on The podcast is incredible and I really appreciate that you are showing how very the world of veganism and you know, actually is.

1:00:12

Cool. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Cheers and until next time,

1:00:17

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