Nic Rose

Nic Rose

Sat, 5/22 8:19PM • 58:21

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, vegan, sanctuaries, bit, animals, post, podcast, activism, issue, james, community, feel, money, vegans, influencer, point, veganism, social media, conversations, talking

SPEAKERS

Jim Moore, Nic Rose


Jim Moore  00:16

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans, you're very welcome to it. Each week, I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way, a multitude of viewpoints in the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours of all things plant centric. And this week is no different. I'm going to be chatting with Nick streeck. Nick is a vegan of about four or five years for remember correctly, she does tell us in the in the podcast. So I look forward to her telling this story far more eloquently than me. And there's a range of kind of reasons I wanted to get Nick into a, into a discussion really, and record a podcast with her. But ultimately, I've sort of viewed Nick's opinions if you like, and the things that she puts out there on social media from afar for a while. And I've really enjoyed her stance and the things that she says and the viewpoints that she holds. And I wanted to explore them a little bit further, particularly in light of, you know, various controversial, quote unquote, controversial subjects within the vegan community. Again, quote unquote, a lot saying, quote, unquote, as you can tell, I've liked so particularly the kind of, for those who haven't been following, there's been a bit of a back and forth, shall we say, with? James asked by, and some of his waspey How have you said, and some of his, some of his supporters, and some people who disagree with his, with his activism and his viewpoints. So we get into a little bit of that, because there's a little bit of a controversial subject there. If you'd like a bit of background to that, then I suppose I have a little look around your your neighbourhood social media platforms here, your Instagrams, and Twitter's and so on, and I'm sure you'll, you'll come across the background, if the podcast doesn't provide you with enough of it itself. But I wanted to get into that discussion, amongst other things, and oh, and also just to find out a little bit more about Nick herself and her personal journey and what's brought her here. So I will stop rambling on and get to the guts of the cut to the chase. So without further ado, here's a conversation between me and Nick streak.


Nic Rose  02:58

Yeah, so I went vegan. Five and a half years ago, November 2015. And it feels like so long ago now. I remember I had a couple of friends who were vegan, not like close friends. So I knew what vegan like veganism was. And I understood why they did it. But it totally like wasn't on my radar at all. I hear a lot of vegans say I used to be that person that was like, oh, bacon, though. And, you know, basically the people that they're having to deal with now when they have these conversations about veganism. And I actually like I was just very indifferent. I totally got why people did it, but I just it wasn't on my radar at all. And so yeah, I had these two friends who, who were vegan, they spoke about it a bit, but they weren't, you know, they weren't really trying to like get me on board or anything. But I definitely think that they sort of planted that seed in my mind, and then I think it was probably about a year after because one of them have been vegan for a really long time. And then one of them had been vegan for about a year by the time that I made the change. But like in that year, I guess I saw more people online like create creatives, especially like I remember seeing a tattoo artist. She was talking a quite a lot about veganism. And I was okay. Yeah. Okay, so I know more people that are doing this thing now. But ultimately, it was, I think a Wii video on Facebook of a farmer who had taken a calf away from the mother and put them on like the back of a trailer and they were driving away for a field. And the mother was like running alongside the vehicle and I don't know it was just kind of that. I feel like the people that I knew that were vegan, that kind of like I Then I guess it made me think about it a bit more. And then just suddenly, it became more common on social media and just got to a point where I was like, Oh, actually, I'm paying paying attention to this. Now I can't, I'm not going to ignore this anymore. And I kind of did it for me. I wasn't like, vegetarian beforehand, although there was perhaps like a little bit of foreshadowing, like I didn't like most meat growing up, and my mom used to make like vegetarian chilies and stuff with corn mints, and I never had like, beef burgers on our family barbecue, because I just thought it was a little bit gross. And so I felt like, I was gonna get to this point, at some point, you know? And, yeah, so I went vegan five and a half years ago. And only a couple months later, I got involved in activism within my local town. And we started doing like outreach, street outreach, Earthlings experience stuff, food tasting, like all sorts of stuff. And I just met a lot of people in the local area who will also be good. And light, it just really took off and there


06:20

was so was the the kind of, obviously it sounds like the ethical route was the kind of route that led you in, brought you in. And, you know, you probably from there quite quickly, I think probably by most people's standards, particularly now I think, who goes vegan? Probably doesn't necessarily end up in kind of the activism kind of space that quickly. was, was there kind of, you know, you mentioned them some friends along the way. Was there was that a space that they were in already and kind of led you into a where you kind of like, you know, quite politically aware, you know, prior to going vegan, etc.


06:56

Yeah, so I wasn't, I wouldn't say I was politically aware before going vegan at all. I think veganism is kind of been my little gateway into that. So when I first went vegan, it was actually through Instagram that I got chatting to someone who also lived in the same town. And they were interested in starting, like an outreach group in our town, and they wanted to I don't, I think they done a couple of things up in London. And they, you know, saw the opportunities to do it closer to home and got in touch with me, said, Look, do you want to come in? try this out? And so yeah, we just started, I mean, they started a couple months before me because they'd been vegan a bit longer. But then I joined Yeah, like, a couple months, I guess it was the start of 2016. And just started getting involved in Yeah, street activism, and like slaughterhouse demos and stuff like that. And really, it was kind of from there that I sort of then started looking at, like other issues. And I mean, a lot, I think a lot of people come into veganism the other way around. So they are like, I've done a lot of human rights work. And it's naturally been like the right thing for them to do to be like, Okay, well, you know, if I'm going to be consistent in the way I feel about you know, anti oppression, then I'm going to naturally gonna not want to partake in animal exploitation as well. But for me, it was definitely animals first, and then now it's like a much broader thing for me.


08:35

Yeah, new experiences gaining like a community around you. Then those first few months of going into sort of street outreach and slaughterhouse demos and so on so forth. Did you find that the community that you were building there was incredibly focused on the vegan message only? Or was there a degree of intersectionality across that group? And was that kind of? If there was, was that kind of unique to that group? Do you think or is that something you've experienced? In every group? You've been a part of so far?


09:08

Yeah, you know, I guess when we first started out, it was very much single issue. It was just about animal exploitation. And like, I guess you'd say it was more focused on food. But there was I think it was just a unique to the group of people that we were, you know, I've learned a lot from those people that set up that that outreach, they I think were more politically minded than I was at that time. They've been vegan for a bit longer. And definitely, were going to other events, you know, women's rights marches and climate change marches and things like that. So a lot of what I learned about other oppression was from them, and I definitely do feel like it is unique like I've gone to a lot of Like events where it has been very much about animals and like, I've tried to have conversations with people about other things, and it's kind of not really been something that anyone wants to talk about. Yeah, I don't. I think actually, I think ultimately, that kind of is. So what happened was we were, we started this group in town. And we got a lot of people along. But I think after a couple of years, there was quite a difference of opinion on how we should do that. So whereas we were becoming more aware of other issues and the intersections of oppression, you know, there are a lot of people that are very much Well, I'm vegan for the animals, I only want to, you know, focus on the animals, and there was a bit of a fallout over that. So I don't think that is something that is happening a lot. Like I don't know, I didn't say that right, I don't think I think there are a lot of groups who are very focused on animals only.


11:13

Once you think that is, I know, that's like a really big question. But to me, it's always seemed fairly logical, that a system that puts in place one form of oppression. And that's and that, that, and those, you know, those powers, if you like that are putting that system in place. Who are the 1%? If you like that, they probably have their hand on other forms of oppression, you know, it, it that would logically follow to me, you know, I'd never consider myself to be an expert in that field. But certainly from people I've spoken to, it seems logical. So it almost seems illogical to me, when people will say, Well, it seems illogical when they absolutely deny the existence of any connection. Yeah. I could sort of vaguely broadly understand somebody saying, I feel comfortable in this other necessary things, you know, right. And we all have a responsibility to try and educate ourselves and get better at different in different areas, and be more help to those, you know, those groups but and better allies, etc. But I can see why somebody might say, well, that I'm comfortable with the single issue. And so it's not I don't see those oppressions I see them, but I just don't feel comfortable being a spokesperson being an ally in that space. And maybe I should, but I don't necessarily understand the when there's a complete it like it, where they don't belong to it to each other. And there's almost a denial of it. You know, what's your, your view on on that? You know, is that something that? Is it a case of there are both of those types of single issue, folks, or?


13:00

I think there's so many different reasons. I think that what's different about animal rights is that we're advocating on behalf of animals who, I wouldn't say they're voiceless, I think that they have a voice and that we don't listen, or we don't understand. But you know, animals can't say to us that I don't like the way you're doing this. So vegans, I think, can be quite comfortable. And like, Okay, I'm going to do this form of activism that I'm comfortable with. And they won't be challenged. Whereas I think, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to venture into, you know, talking out against racism as part of like, all of the Black Lives Matter stuff that happened last year, like I think people were sometimes afraid, because they are maybe worried that they'll say something wrong, do something wrong. And so, yeah, it's like a comfort zone thing is they know that they can, they can just do what they're doing with the animal rights stuff. And yeah, what was the other? The other I like this, so many reasons. I completely lost my train of thought,


14:23

I suppose that it's like that. Yeah, that one? Well, that was my long rambling question. Sorry. Well, I think I was just more or less requesting more thinking aloud, because it's just one of those where I can see why I mean, like you've illustrated there, I can see, I can see folks saying that. You know, I don't feel comfortable getting involved in those other issues is when there's like an act and active denial, like it's not our space, it's not our job to get involved in those things. It's not even necessarily connected. You know, we're all trying to do On these bandwidth, all that kind is rhetoric. I don't really understand the thing is, it does feel logical to me that there's a connection between these things. But yeah, you know?


15:11

Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely. I mean, if we actually want to see a vegan world, I don't know how we possibly could without looking at all the other issues, because how are we ever going to have a world where we don't we're not like exploiting animals, you know, animals are totally free to do their own thing. But we're still, you know, we still got slave labour, child labour, you know, black people are still being killed in horrific ways. And there's still racism, homophobia, everyone's ablest like, it just, it just, it goes hand in hand, because I don't I often think, how can we get people to take? Like, how can we get people to truly care about what's happening to animals, if we aren't even yet at the point where we truly care about what is happening to each other? And, yeah, I just think, I also think that like, we, you know, the society we live in, we all we all work long hours, the time that we have to ourselves is so short, that it can be overwhelming to think, Well, you know, I need to be doing this, this and this, but I've only got time to do one. And maybe people decide, well, I'm just going to, you know, I'm just going to advocate for animals. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, because we, we are all limited in the time we have but yeah, the problem I think there is is like you mentioned is this denial or, you know, guess just sort of burying your head in the sand about other issues. Which I just ultimately don't think helps, helps the movement or helps the animals either I think it's gonna, like make the journey to a vegan world, if that is even possible, a longer one. You know, I see so many people, were not even so many people, but just in my experience, like people that, yeah, basically, will say horrible things like, you know, they won't stand with people who are fighting, you know, racism, because they meet. And it's like, I don't get that, though. Because if you want a vegan world, then these are the people you need to be having conversations with. Yeah. And like, you've got common ground, surely, because you're both fighting for something. And I think that's often missed is that we've got all these different, you know, different groups fighting oppression, and they're all might be different things. But ultimately, we're all really passionate about ending this injustice no matter what it is, and surely that's all common ground for us to to have conversations, they're the people that we're probably going to make the most progress with.


17:55

At that point that you make there that there's there are many folks in the sort of, quote unquote, community who would, who will say, you know, I won't be part of this say, No, no, there's many views on that on this particular group by just pluck them out just as a, you know, as a, as an example. But take extinction rebellion? Yeah, there's lots of people that will say, I, as a vegan won't take part in anything to do with extinction rebellion, because those folks aren't, aren't vegan. And so I think you, you kind of you strike upon a really interesting point there that I think that that I wouldn't say I've seen it a huge I've, you know, I see loads and loads of it, but then I'm also conscious of my social media bubble. So I might be talking to, you know, preaching to the converted, who are folks who will sort of think, Well, obviously, these things are all intersected, you know, no, I definitely I'd stand with somebody who ate meat, because otherwise, how am I going to, you know, have any conversation about how these things can connect at some point? and so on and so forth? But, yeah, do you see, from your perspective, do you see more of that kind of that viewpoint, that there's sort of almost as we've become more polarised social media, culture, etc, that there are more vegans if you hike who who are wanting to become entrenched in that kind of almost like wear the badge and like distance themselves or, or have you seen actually with the sharing of kind of information, social media that there's actually probably people are far more aware of lots of different issues and more willing to accept that there are other things to get involved with.


19:43

You know, it's difficult because like you I've got my own social media. And I shut out like everything that I just, I just find harmful. So I'd like to think that people are learning and there are you know, this is one of the good things about social media is that A lot of people out there doing good work, and you just need to find them. So I do think, and like with podcasts as well, like, I listened to so many podcasts and these topics are being discussed more and more, you know, about these intersections. And so I like to think that people are becoming more aware. But I'm sceptical about whether that is actually the case, because I, you know, I, I do shut myself off from it a bit.


20:29

Yeah, I suppose I sort of feel a little bit like maybe somebody who kind of straddles the worlds a little bit with with the podcast, quite varied, and having lots of different folks on. And I'll get your view on this, I definitely see on one side, I see some people doing some incredibly meaningful thought provoking work in the space of educating me, whether it be on you know, what systems of oppression exist, better use of language, you know, to support more people across all communities, you know, whatever it may be, I see lots, I see lots of those people, and I, you know, I personally love to follow them as it feels like it's an education, and they send me off into different places to go and read things and, and learn more. And I think that's fantastic. On the other side of things, and I'm sort of just painting this in a very simplistic binary, just for the purposes of discussion due to but but I also see kind of the influencer community if you like, so see, I don't necessarily mean the big, like, vegan influencers, that adds the aspects or they these kind of big names. I mean, like, I see lots of people wanting to be a lifestyle, sort of vegan influencer, you know, wanting to be a chef or be, you know, on holiday or whatever, whatever it may be, to, but to sort of say, I'm, you know, this is my vegan account, and this is me living my best vegan life kind of thing. And I've had lots of sort of, like discussions with people few on the podcast, but lots of discussions, people off the podcast about whether that is useful or effective. And I still haven't really come to a conclusion. Sometimes I think it is, because it brings in people from, you know, like, just what we said before, there's people out there who aren't aware of any of this stuff. Yeah. So to hit them with, you know, let's all pick out the nuances of the language that we're all using in this particular space. Yeah, when they might not be aware of anything that you're talking about might be like, so like, What? You know, because personally, it's probably taken me, you know, four years plus to get to that point. And for others, they, you know, their, their entry point might be, you know, they just want to cook a great meal in 20 minutes. Yeah, you know, but I'd love to get your view on the value of that. Yeah. Binary.


23:10

Yeah, no, I think it's just really important to understand that, like, everyone, when nothing is nothing is black and white. You know, like you said, it's taken you a long time, it's taken me, yeah, five years to really get to the point where I'm even confident enough to have a conversation with you about this. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know, I think, you know, the society we live in and the way that like, we have social media now. I think it's kind of natural that people are wanting to, you know, create businesses and be influencers and you know, you got you got to make your money somehow. And I think like you said, when people are coming into veganism, you can't you just need all these places for people to go, and they'll find that the right place for them and it is, you know, you you just learn as you go along. My worry with social media is that it's just so that it kind of, for me, I feel like lacks diversity sometimes. And I worry that you know, if you come into the unionism, and, you know, the first thing you see, is one of the more prominent vegans celebs as we call them, is that that's kind of like, that becomes what they see veganism is and I worry that there's not like enough, I guess critical for and like, not enough seeing all of these different issues in the first place. So like I, I understand that I can't expect people to immediately understand all of these different intersections especially when a lot of the language around it is quite hard to understand. Like, it's not the most accessible stuff. So I do get that and like I wouldn't, I wouldn't like outcast someone because they follow James asked me or something even though I disagree with James asked me. I just worry, though, that it becomes an issue when they decide that, you know, James aspi, or Joey carb strong, or, you know, whoever else has said this thing, it then becomes like, well, they said it so. So that's all there is. And I feel like there are, there's a lot of work being done by a lot of incredible people who just don't have the platform. And so yeah, when I say diversity, I mean, if you look at the big players in like, the vegan movement, or animal rights, activism, you know, they're all cisgendered white men, and it's kind of like, Well, why is that? Like, why? Why are we not seeing a more diverse range of influences who are talking about different different issues, especially as like, we know that there are more women in the movement than there are men. And especially as I think I read this somewhere, but I wouldn't be able to give a source right now but the black community is like the fastest growing vegan community and it's kind of like well, so why is it then that we have these dislike, select, you know, three or five white men as the kind of like poster boys for veganism and for animal rights. So why is that and kind of like that, you know, I do see that as an issue, but I think it's not something that you would first think about when you come into veganism, and I understand that, like, you're just trying to navigate animal oppression. So I You can't expect people to understand everything, you know, God, there's so much I don't understand, and I'm, you know, five years down the line. So I don't know what the answer to that is, because how do you find these other people? And how do you get people to engage with content that isn't, you know, automatically shoved right under under their noses?


27:17

I was gonna ask that why do you think that is the case? Because you know, I'll give an example there's an account Instagram account you probably follow called the Black project. You've seen it but they've they've been doing this fascinating experiment recently, where they will post their usual content and like, on a particular day, they will post like the winner of the Bake Off or something who was who was like, you know, a white person or white male or whatever, they'll post that image I picked that one out specifically because that's what they did post a couple of weeks back Yeah. And they were kind of like if you've not seen our last three posts, but you've seen this post then don't like it go back and read the rest of our content kind of basically saying the algorithm here has been built in such a way that it is like I don't know the proper terminology I don't know if it's is that officially shadow banning is that what you'd call that?


28:23

Yeah yeah, I think it's just that there's not shown to as many like it's just not


28:30

it's not Yeah, yeah trying to be too cool there but no,


28:33

you might be right


28:35

i think that's what is whatever is not shown it's not showing up Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the Bake Off winner is and so on so forth. Yeah. So my going back to my my question is do you think that this the reason we have these three or five three to five influences who are all of a certain gender sexuality background etc? Is that the result of this is sort of a nature or nurture thing you know, is it it was something we've been given through social media in the in sort of the almost the old media structures still exist? It's just that they've got a vegan label at the on the front door? Or is it? Is it something else going on insofar as like actually the vegan community just like any community is a mirror of mainstream culture and so you're still in this space? We're not any more woke than anybody out any other community even though we might think we are what


29:36

No, yeah, no, no. No, I know I was actually gonna bring bring up what you said. Like I think, you know, like when you look at the way that you know, the media reports on things, even just your general media, they like then if you look at vegan vegan news sites and stuff, you know, they kind of Prop these people up, don't they? They they talk about The James asked me is in the Joey carb Strong's. And you see it in like, organisations like PETA as well, like, you know, in the way that they use celebrities and quite often white celebrities and the way they use, you know, white women naked white women to like push their, their, their campaigns and stuff, I think. I do think it is a mirror of culture in general. Although, I mean, I do think that the algorithm algorithm online is definitely, definitely part of that. I just do think as part of a wider issue, that we still are propping up white people and white men. Um, yeah,


30:43

this is such a tricky one, isn't it? Because it does feel very much like, you know, which came first, you know, when was it that people wanted this content? Or was it that it was served? You know, I really struggle with that, which which way round? It is.


31:03

Yeah. And I don't know, and I, you know, I want to I want to make the point as well that, you know, James Ashby and Earthling Ed, you know, they are good speakers, they have provided good content. So I'm not going to deny that even though I think that there are problems with those people, they have kind of worked their way into into the vegan movement. And then I guess they've been grabbed and pushed by Yeah, by I guess other like other celebrities. And yeah, I don't I don't know. Because like when when you think about influences, like what makes an influencer anyway, and to me, it's usually someone that is doing like, adverts for companies and stuff. And I do think that is something that James aspi has done I think he was marketing CBD oil or something at some point. So I think there is an element of like businesses will probably prop them up as well you know, they're like, yeah, yeah. Is there a poster for consumerism and capitalism so


32:19

fulfilling in a way isn't it? Yeah, you kind of you may be finding your way into this world and thinking I'd like to make a career out of this property with good intentions. At the beginning, maybe you think Well, I've got quite a good ability to you know, to speak and so on and and then somebody says to you, or you're good at that one, and I you know, a company sort of comes along and says, Well, I'll give you money to talk about this. Why don't you tell us more you're vague? Suppose you're a vegan company or you're talking about some via Yeah, I'll do that and I suppose it it's then self fulfilling it's like you were told you would sort of taught to act that way so that you could get the attention of those companies whether you did it consciously or subconsciously Yeah, it's almost like if you were a new alpha have conversations with people who kind of know how social media works before because of sort of, you know, as somebody who's trying to get a podcast to be popular do I'm really worried how why this probably some deep psychological issue going on there but I know the podcast but for whatever reason, I decided it was porn that I did it and and so I've spoken to lots of people about this and they they they very much speak about it in terms of Oh, it's something that you need to learn you need to learn what content you need to put out and when you need to put it out and who you need to target and all this kind of stuff. And that that very much sort of speaks to me like of Yeah, you need to learn what the existing system and structure is don't try and be any different to it. Just be the person that you're supposed to be.


33:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No question. No, no, absolutely. And I remember there was a post that James asked me did which was here you probably saw this it was him and there was a pig hung upside down in the background about to be killed. And he got a lot of backlash for that because it's like why are you posing with an animal that's literally about how the fruit caught Yeah, and he did explain actually that he gets more engagement on his posts when he is in his posts. And that's that's that's true that's he's not making that up that is that is true. Yeah, so and also like, these people are connected as well and they're probably asking those questions of how you know, how can I get my content seen more and they are they are Yeah, they're using the system and there's nothing wrong with that really, like it's there to be manipulated. And I think Earthling Ed has a he has an agent does Hey, he has a publicist or something he


35:03

always got, I think he's got a whole PR kind of surge activism is its own its own thing if you


35:09

Yes. Yeah. So


35:13

but then he sort of then think, I suppose the problem with it is you've then got somebody and I'm thinking about the beyond species podcast, which is excellent, excellent podcasts and a great resource for people and advocate, people have a listen and you know, is far more deep thinking the mind. But I definitely, you know, I'm the ITV to their


35:42

BBC for but not to offend you. You should be over there. You shouldn't be.


35:50

But But yeah, like, they do fantastic work on that podcast. And a very true in the way that they engage on social media, like it's very much like, here's the title of the episode is the cover. And, you know, I mean, I suppose the only rule it would follow is like, does your grid look great? Yeah, it follows that rule that looks great, but it's not one that's like, you know, the presenters got his shirt off on the Yeah. It's like, it's not following all of the, the rule, but at the same time, as a result, and I'm sure, you know, it gets a tonne of listeners, but it you could argue, well, that's not going to connect to the mainstream, because they're never going to see it, you know, because they, the algorithm won't push that forward, because it's not, no one on Instagram. Well, no one's doing it manually anyway. But there's no one wrote any code that said, you know, if somebody's putting out something that's really like, meaningful and thoughtful, and yeah, you know, you know, then push it forward. Yeah, I did the opposite. So I just wonder like, how much do you caught that and not lose your, your, you know, what it was that made you useful? and valid? And should you call it is just such like, it's such a challenge, isn't it?


37:11

What? I own it? I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, short of advertising? Like how do I couldn't say how you would organically grow your channel? Enough? Yeah. Without putting a tonne of money behind it, you know?


37:30

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know you. And even then I'd imagine. I saw something from you know, Tabitha brown recently. Yes. The, the sort of Kara bacon fame. Back in the day, I say back in the day is probably about a year ago. meteoric rise and I, you know, incredible. She's just you could listen to her voice. Just like a concert. Cooking is brilliant. And I just love it. So she's great. She posted something the other day that was talking about a recent case of one of the daily cases of police brutality in the states and a murder that had taken place again, and she was talking about how she she did this post about talking about that. And her feelings on it. It was quite a raw kind of, like, I just want to jump on a camera and say what I think and and she was saying, essentially, like, he got shadow banned. That was that was definitely the word. She used this. Yeah. And that made me think as well, like, how how's that happened? Because that's like, that's one of the she's she's found a way to not be the norm and become hugely popular. She's courted it enough to, to, you know, be successful. But then at the moment, she said something that was considered controversial. And, you know, it wasn't just fact but considered, she got shut down. Yeah, that just that that that is terrifying. Really?


39:18

Yeah. I mean, that yeah, that is what censoring isn't it? So, but there seems to be a lot more of that. Definitely that Yeah, like around police brutality, like anything that kind of is challenging the status quo or, you know, the systems that are in place is getting shut down, like people are being silenced. And that is scary, because they're doing it really easily. And I don't know what their algorithm is, but it is scary.


39:50

Yeah, this seems like an element of I don't know if it's manual, but they said somebody would have somewhere had to have said I would have thought that content shouldn't be pushed.


40:03

I think they flag words, don't they? They flag words and phrases and imagery. So that's why a lot of the time people will, like remove certain letters from words and use like a symbol. So that kind of gets around that.


40:18

Right. And there's, there's a bit of a trend of screenshotting isn't there rather than repost or sharing? Yeah, but I guess for the same purposes, I'm not as clued up. So why would you do that?


40:32

I've only done that. Because if I don't want, so if I want to share something problematic that I think someone has done, and I don't want them to get, like, don't want to direct people to their site, or for them to get the engagement, I'll just screenshot it so that people don't go directly there.


40:50

Right, so that kind of stops the clickbait kind of vibe.


40:54

Yeah. Yeah. So you can, so if someone Yeah, so like, when James asked me, he was doing a lot of the animal Holocaust stuff. You know, you, like if you wanted to make people aware that it was an issue without, you know, sharing his posts, so that he got a boost from that you would just screenshot it and make people aware. And it's also good, because then people can't click through to it as easily. So you're not promoting it at the thing? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.


41:25

Yeah. So going back to that point about influencing? Yeah. Is there kind of a, do you think there's a kind of a cutoff point, and I appreciate you can't, you know, neither of us are the arbiters of, of the where that cutoff point is, but you know, just for you, as a consumer of this, this kind of content member of the community and somebody that I would definitely consider a sage voice with it within it from, from what I can see, you know, for you, is there like a cut off point of like, I can see why this person is doing what they're doing. It's of, you know, but they're also, you know, their hearts in the right place, and they're trying, and they're not trying to cause harm with it. You know, is there is there a cut off line for you versus actually that's too much. And you're literally just trying to, you know, provoking and play the system.


42:22

It depends on each individual. You know, I don't want to focus too much on James I don't want to just make this podcast about him. But I think like the the worrying thing is with the people who are named folks within the community is there's a lot of, or, I should say, there's a lack of transparency. So, you know, we know that James asked me, I think Earthling Ed and various people have Patreon for example, and they have YouTube's and they're monetizing what they're doing but there's no transparency there about where that money goes. And that's you know, that's very different to if you were to give to a charity for example, you know, a charity has to provide all their financial performance records and stuff like that and I just feel like if people aren't transparent that's kind of a red flag for me. And it is when it seems to become an ego issue as well. Yeah. I just I just really struggle to find like the I completely lost my train of thought again. How


43:49

No, I think I think I see we you see we go on with it. I definitely like the transparency piece particularly I think it was just jumped to mind was I don't know if you if you follow much of George Monbiot, his work he's not a social media type person. Yeah. More, more on Twitter. I think more than certainly, I think he had an Instagram account but doesn't do anything with it. His website posts like his earnings, and what he's done with, you know, literally down to like, here's my mortgage payment. This was I got I was given, you know, down to like, the BBC paid for me to do X, Y and Zed when they asked me to appear on this show, and they paid my taxi here and they paid for my meal there. And like it's like that transparent and like I I was like, hats off. Yeah, fair play. I was in that position. I'd love to think that that's what I do. would be you know, I mean, thankfully This podcast is 1000s in the hole so so I'm I'd be an issue. Post off, I owe a lot of people money base. But yeah, I'd love to think if I was in that position, that's what I do. And it feels like such a simple thing to remedy. I think there was a thing with the particular person who shall not be named. Where it was exactly that it was there was a bit about, you know, pay me some money, and the results of people getting what you can,


45:29

what is it for? Yeah. Like, what what do you want it for? And he was so he was so secretive about it. And then, and then you find out it's a crypto investment scheme. And I mean, I think some people were annoyed, but I have to say like, Why were you giving money in the first place? Like when he would didn't tell you will? It was four, but then, you know, I guess like, yeah, if you follow, if you follow James asked me for a long time and you liked his talks and what he's done, then, yeah, you become you trust these people. But I just think it is dishonest to not tell people what you're asking money for. Especially if you are jetting off around the world, during a pandemic. I'm posting photos of you and your wife just you know, hanging out. I just think, yeah, but I mean, I don't know, they don't have to share that information. But I think that we should demand that information, because they're claiming to use it for good, you know, James aspi, is claiming that he's gonna make money out of this scheme so that he can support sanctuaries and stuff and Well, we'll see if that happens. But yeah,


46:49

yeah, it's a tricky one. I think, you know, and to try and, and I know, I took us down this particular aspie rabbit hole. But um, I think like, it comes back to the point I think you made you made earlier that about critical thinking, right, right. At the beginning, you talked about critical thinking. And I think there's a, an element of like, if people want to give money to him or anybody else, and that's up to them, do what they can do what they like, yeah. But do it with your eyes open? Yeah. And I do do it knowing that where the money could go and be comfortable with that, you know, we were talking about this because I do a bit of bit of stuff with green gazelles, the rugby Rugby Club thing. And we're sort of getting off the ground, and we're sort of Chenault is shaping things. And obviously, there's elements of, you know, bills to pay in bits and pieces. So, yeah. And we really, like we have a lot of discussion about how to make sure that what we were doing is what if we've got a lot of for raising money for something. So where are we given it and what for and you're gonna make some money out of something, then who's gonna get the benefit of that? Yeah. We keep coming back to like people like Tower Hill stables, you know, like, Fiona ropes is sanctuary, because it, you know, it feels transparent, it feels genuine, we can see the benefit. There's, you know, and on the flip side, you know, if I'm sure and I'm sure he needs funding, don't get me wrong, but first thing Ed's opens up a sanctuary. And I think there was an example of that, where there was a post that he got quite a lot of criticism for, because it was like a picture of him doing the kind of outstretched like, sort of save, yeah. Meeting Jesus. Yeah. So the big and Jesus thing that's, you know, that's obviously is either required or nurtured or whatever, but But yeah, there was a discussion, I think we're about you know, should we give we'll give money to that one, because it's, you know, circling heads and is why, like, there's lots of sanctuaries out there that


49:10

that already established. Oh, yeah.


49:14

Yeah. Yeah, it's been there for and I was thinking of fionn ropes. He's like, you know, literally, like for years, trying to keep the lights on camera, can't pay for any, any body or anything. And he's very transparent about when she asked for money. It's like his, I need 200 pounds to buy this. And in fact, you could just go to the website if you'd like and buy it. Yes. If it's, yeah, ship it here because it's animal feed for the, you know, the 50 horses or whatever, the sanctuary. And it just feels like, do you do your homework, give you money where you're comfortable giving it I suppose.


49:56

Yeah, I guess you just, you've just got to make sure You're comfortable. And you've got to make sure that you have the information, you know, is the person you're giving the money to? What do you know about them? Like, what have they done with it in the past? Like, how are you going to know they follow through on what they've promised? And is there a way to go around that? Like, you know, we're talking about sanctuaries, give to sanctuaries directly, you know, give to your local sanctuary, give to your local hunts, ARBs give, you know, sort of cut out these middlemen, as it were. And yeah, yeah, do it that way. And like, I understand that people, like Earthling Ed are, you know, they are dedicating their life to it. So it is like a full time job. So you know, from that respect is like, well, they do need to make an income of wise, how do they live, but I just feel like there's just no way of knowing how much they're earning and what they're using it for, you know, you know, when you add up things like YouTube, and Patreon, and like all the speaking, the payments they get for speaking events and things. And I understand as well that people want to support people like this because they themselves, maybe aren't as confident to go out and do the kind of work. And I get that I don't want to suggest that like everyone can just go out and do what Earthling Ed does, or what James does, because, you know, that's not fair. And I think that would be bordering on ablest, because not everyone is able to go and do that. But at the same time, it worries me that we think that we can just peddle a load of money into a handful of people. And that's going to change the world. It's not we need collective action. We need grassroots movements, and we need lots of people doing lots of different things, giving all our hard earned money that you know, we've been working our butts off or to a few people who from my experience of what I see are living pretty lavish lifestyles, just doesn't scream Animal Liberation to me. And that's, that's what worries me. Like, I want to see people supporting the small sanctuaries, supporting the local small businesses supporting the hunt sobs and those taking direct action who are actually, you know, risking their lives and saving lives at the same time.


52:32

I love that point. It feels like a perfect place to end. Yeah, just I couldn't agree more like, give money to your local hunts helps your local sanctuaries. No 100% where it's going, Yeah, and it's gonna make an impact. You know, because there's people there's people doing that work, you know, and if if I get you know, going out on hunts, sobbing isn't for everybody. You know, it, it'll be honest, it's not something that I feel like capable of doing. I'd love to think that I could, at some point, but I, you know, I don't feel like I could, but I but giving my money to people at least feels like something that I can do to help you know, if it keeps a vehicle on the road, or, you know, because it has a real that's what I love about those things, like, was talking about the funeral example is a real


53:30

this is what you're doing. Is it tangible, isn't it?


53:33

Yeah, I need this for this, or Landrover doesn't work and you know, that sort of thing, like the horses need feeding. That, that makes sense to me, but they're kind of the buyers Moses kind of like, well, if I have a great life, people will then look at me and say, Well, I want a great life, too. Maybe I should be vegan, like that feels so tenuous, and extrapolated that I'm not, I'm not doing it.


54:09

It's just not like it's not achievable for everyone as well as it's, it just reeks of, you know, capitalism in the way that people say, Oh, if you just work hard enough, you can be like Jeff Bezos, it's like, No, you can't, you can't, you're not gonna be and the only way that you get to be like that is by exploiting people. And that yes,


54:32

I so so so agree with that. I think that that's something that assists sort of myth that I think capitalist society, Western society pedals a lot and is a bit as we've all sort of, we're all unknowingly the victims of this idea of perpetual growth. You know, I posted it again today, this little segment of I don't know what show he was on like George mom Bo talking. I saw Yankee boy, what the hell show this was so bizarre that he said it on it, but that this whole he was talking about growth and saying, you know we're only asking for 3% growth and he was saying you had that up 24 years with what we're saying is the economy is going to double in 24 years. So who is going to pay for that? Because that's the nature of it some when someone wins, someone loses, and it's either the environment a community that we can't see because that you know, is far enough away and you can't see them they'll be fine with you know, animals it could be any anybody but someone is going to lose. And I thought that was I feel like BBC on in 2021 wouldn't have put that quote out. But they they did then so But yeah, I think it's you're spot on is is sort of the curse of capitalism is if you like the we're all sort of we all blame each other rather than this sort of system. Yeah, it's a distraction,


56:09

isn't it? So yeah, divide and conquer and and whilst you're at work 40 hours a week, so you're so exhausted, you don't want to challenge us? Yeah, totally.


56:21

Totally. He


56:21

was the energy


56:25

on that gloriously positive. We never set out to make light entertainment. To be fair.


56:34

I think you knew what you were getting yourself into when you invited me on here to be honest.


56:38

Well, I wanted to talk about this stuff. And I thought you you know I couldn't think of anybody more equipped tonight so well, I was it. I've always enjoyed this stuff that you post and so on. I always you know, there's, there's you and a few others who I see as a bit of a guiding light bit of a barometer for me, so yeah, I appreciate it.


57:02

Hi. Thanks for having me on to ramble. Nonsense. I appreciate that.


57:07

I've enjoyed it. Thanks. Thanks,

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