Tim Thorpe, The Vegan Society

Jim Moore 0:18

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism, discovering along the way a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours of all things plant centric, and his week is no different. It's Episode 100 we are finally there. Long term listeners will know that my counting of episodes skills leave a little to be desired so it might be 100 I think is 100. You might tell me otherwise. I'm pretty sure it is. So happy 100 episodes to the bloody vegans podcast. feels a bit self congratulatory. Anyway, so let's do a little bit of admin before we get into the episode in hand. So November 27. You will be sick of me saying this by now i'm sure but it is well worth repeating it bears repeating November the 27th at Rosslyn Park, south of London, the green gazelles the world's first vegan rugby team, the world's first That's incredible. With over 150 players on the books from around the world. Men, women, children, people of all ages are playing their first well not quite their first competitive game, but certainly their first 15th game. So for those of you familiar with rugby, their first 15th game against Rosslyn Park, the home side there and it's a ticketed affair is 15 pounds a ticket. You can buy those on green gazelles rugby club.com, springs, L's rugby club.com. And then there'll be a feast of entertainment or in a literal feast, there'll be lots of vegan food, but all sorts of music and other kind of other kind of merriment. So I would thoroughly recommend you get your tickets quickly because they are they are going fast and I think there is what should we say? I think I think there's about 2000 of them in total and they are going quickly they're going at a pace so is not a 40,000 capacity stadium. So those tickets will not last long, you know, so do get hold of your ticket as soon as you can on green gazelles rugby club.com Next up as reading vegan festival for those who are very close to this south of England West bark share, in particular the Thames Valley area 25 minutes on a train from Paddington if you get one of the quick ones. You can be out reading at vegan festival, September the 18th in market house in Redding. And there is a whole host of wonderful things obviously lots of vegan businesses to support stallholders, etc. Lots of food crafts, all kinds of other wonderful stuff. There'll be some live music as well. And the bit that I'm involved with specifically is the guest speakers. There's a little guest speakers area, we're going to have lots of folks giving live live talks about all kinds of different subjects whether climate, climate change based animal advocacy, health, you name it, there's all kinds of different subjects. And there's also a live interview as well. So I think I think I can say who the guest speaker is also the guest speakers. We've got Dora Hargitay, Dora former guests of the bloody vegans podcast, deeply involved in animal rebellion.

Absolutely fantastic orator and she's going to be talking about the very, very pressing climate emergency and all we can do to support animal rebellion in that cause. We've got the quite wonderful and and another former patron of this parish, Olivier man Kondo. He's going to be talking about his his personal, incredible journey into veganism that caused his whole life the flip around from a health perspective. So he's going to be talking to about some of his his amazing health tips. We've got, who else have we got we've got a live chat with Harkey, the founder of stay clothes, clothing around his work, connected to keep the ban an organisation that is against fox hunting and looking to actively keep the ban in place in the UK because it is under threat all the time. So Wonderful, hopefully wonderful hair conversation. That one's more of a chat. It's more like a live bloody vegans podcast, which is exciting. And then finally, and actually today's guest on this podcast is also at the writing vegan festival and that is the lovely Tim Thorpe, senior campaigns officer for the vegan society, the Oji vegan society. So Tim's gonna be there talking about the the campaign plate up for the planet, amongst other things. And indeed, that moves us swiftly into this week's episode. So on this week's episode, I'm going to be speaking with Jim Thorpe who if you if you like the sound of this, you can go and see live at the vegan festival. But I'm going to be speaking to him thought the senior campaigns officer for the vegan society. We talk about a range of subjects obviously, we talk about the planting value in our in our food system report, which regular listeners will know, I spoke about with the author of that report, Dr. Alex Lockwood, some weeks ago, we're going to be speaking about that report from the vegan society's perspective going a little bit further on that one. We'll also look at plate up for the planet and really as aner as as you as you will know, if you're a long term listener, we're going to be exploring Tim's personal journey into the world of veganism, which is always important. Hey. So as usual, if you'd like to support the podcast, please leave us a five star review on iTunes. That would be quite wonderful. or wherever you get your podcasts if there's a some kind of review system, review it, that'd be lovely. So if you want to support the podcast, please do that. There's also some merchandise available on the website. So if you'd like a bloody vegans podcast, t shirt, then by all means, do that as well. That would be quite wonderful. And that's about it. I think you've had enough admin for me that enough arms and ours for me. So without further ado, here is a conversation between me and Tim Thorpe from the vegan society.

right then. So Tim, it'd be awesome to get started with a little bit of your personal journey into the world of veganism. What kind of brought you here. Yeah, sure.

Tim Thorpe 7:25

Well, thanks for having me on Jim. So my story into veganism is it was quite a long journey. To be honest, I was not somebody who is kind of easily easily turned vegan by a kind of specific person or a specific event. I was very much a meat eater growing up. I think I've kind of first exposure to the idea was my older brother actually, who went vegetarian when I was about 15, I think. And I remember I used to kind of, you know, take the Mickey out of him a little bit and and you know, I didn't really understand it at the time and but he never really kind of liked animal products that much anyway, and he really enjoyed me. And I was a big a big meat eater. And yeah, I think I remember one formative kind of moment was when I was playing five aside football with some friends. There was a caterpillar going across the football pitch, like this little concrete football pitch. And I spent ages as well as I spent about 20 minutes or so just kind of shepherding it across the football pitch, making sure the football didn't hit it, making sure nobody tried to try it on it. And I've always had that kind of like a sensitivity I guess around animals. By I think that was a moment when I think I connected it with you know, the breakfast I'd had that morning us and so on, I kind of really made that connection. And so I I went at that stage, I thought I'm going to try going vegetarian for two weeks, I'd never clear what veganism was I don't think at that time in my life, and then and that just worked for me. So I stay vegetarian for many, many years. And then I went off to study environmental sciences. So I had an interest in environmental sciences. I studied an undergraduate in environmental sciences, and then went on to do a master's in a similar similar area of study. And kind of throughout that time, I understood the current the environmental dimensions of food production and of kind of animal farming and the impact that's having on the on the planet in terms of land use and in terms of the climate impact and water and resource use. And so yeah, it still took me a very long time to get around to veganism. I think I was there in terms of my values and my understanding. And I was kind of trying to trying to get there. I'd kind of sampled some plant milks. And I was seeing if I could, maybe I can get ethical eggs I was looking around in a very research, I've never quite happy with it. But yeah, but eventually I got there and I actually met my partner around the same time who was vegan when I met her. And so that kind of was the final, the final step I needed where it is kind of somebody else in my life that was there was supportive. So yeah, it took me about 15 years of kind of flipping. Yeah, I got there. And I've been vegan now for about five years. So that was, that was my journey.

Jim Moore 10:36

I'm interested in, you know, you mentioned that the the environmental issues sort of became front and centre for you, at least when you were when you were studying. Was that something that was formally taught? Or was that something that you found through your own research? Because I'm always interested whether kind of these formal institutions, you know, universities in these kind of studies, sort of up putting their finger squarely at animal agriculture and saying, you know, this is a big cause?

Tim Thorpe 11:05

Yeah, good, really good question. And I think, at that time, at the time, where I was studying I, I'd say no, they weren't really, that connection wasn't really formally formally made. And it wasn't much of a discussion within, you know, the kind of student body or with the, with the lecturers and stuff at that time, although it did definitely come up the issue of meat eating, and the kind of the impact of that. But, you know, it really, really wasn't well understood, I don't think, within the environmental community environmental researchers, and the sheer scale of the impact, I don't think was quite was quite understood. So yeah, it was more about kind of, kind of understanding it and kind of reading around the subject. I think I arrived at it. But from what I understand, and just from, from looking at the kind of the positions of like mainstream environmental organisations and the kind of interests of research organisations and university departments that I've kind of come across since then, I think it is becoming more topical. And there is a kind of desire from, from those sorts of institutions to, to discuss the issues of animal agriculture, if not necessarily from a vegan point of view.

Jim Moore 12:26

Yeah, yeah, it sort of fascinates me that, because, you know, it, it seems so so logically, you know, the issue or an issue, a large proportion of the issue, and you've got, you know, the the UN's long shadow report and so on, and many others that have come afterwards. So just interested to know whether it sort of from that background, it became apparent so interesting to hear it was kind of there but but not kind of squarely and that and that it's evolving. Absolutely. what point did you did you come across the vegan society, and I suppose crucially, then start working, you know, in the organisation,

Tim Thorpe 13:08

I think I was aware of the vegan society. When I was a couple of years before I started working with them. I know my my partner was actually a member of the vegan society. And then but I didn't really know much about them at the time I kind of heard heard about them. But I joined in, I was looking for kind of some working in the area of campaigns and policy and something I kind of, you know, is in line with, with my passions and why I kind of believed in and, and that a job came up with a weakness, it was October 2019. And it was actually to work on their glow green campaign or our go green campaign, which is about that is about agriculture. It's about the production side of food. And that was something that was a particular interest for me and kind of my route to veganism. So yeah, looking looking at the UK, kind of agriculture policy and what we produce here and yeah, how we kind of subsidise farming here and all those things. And kind of it was yet trying to change government policy base, basically to make it easier for farmers in the UK to make that transition as a sector over and actually benefit from that transition to plant based diets and vegan diets. So yeah, that really appealed to me. And that was, as I say, October 2019. And I've been with him since

Jim Moore 14:44

Yeah, and when did the I take it from those very early days there's this sort of seeds of inspiration for the planting value in our food system report. We're kind of it sounds like they were there from the very beginning of your your tenure with with the vegan society.

Tim Thorpe 14:59

Yeah. Very much. Yeah, so so the planning value in the food system report and that work we we were what that does i think is it pulls together a lot of different strands and areas of thinking and areas of campaign interest. So the inside it, we have campaigns policy and research department, we do all sorts of things within that department, we've got dieticians that give advice on, you know, nutrition, we've got people who work on rights, and on, you know, rights for vegans in the workplace, and things like that, we've got people who look at the connections between look at research connections, and what we can do in a world of kind of academia. And then we've got our campaigns and policy teams that look at Yeah, both convincing people, more people to try veganism and to stay vegan. And, and also the kind of policy initiatives, the things that are institutional opportunities and barriers towards more people going vegan. So, we've got this whole kind of host of areas, and obviously not all of those relate to food, veganism, you know, broader than food, but a lot of them touch on food and foods, obviously, a central issue is where most of the exploited animals are, and it's the way most people engage with with veganism initially. And so we wanted something that kind of pulled, pull those things together and, and, and was a bit more of a coherent look at the food system and its issues. And I think where that came from was, we would I think a lot of people we speak to whether that be, you know, politicians who might be interested or open to our ideas or other institutions, environmental campaigns, people like that. They're not necessarily against or opposed to the our objectives and our aims for for a plant based food system. But often, they've got very practical concerns. And they're around that they almost can't visualise how this would happen, how do we how would we get there? And and all they can see is because it's obviously from where we are now. It's a really big jump. And there's some there's some or not they can see the problems. So the issues are well, wouldn't be putting farmers out of business. If we if we were to do this, they kind of almost imagine doing it overnight. Wouldn't we farm as a business? How might we manage grasslands without these, these grazing animals that we use this as livestock for, for food, and various other issues, concerns over highly processed food, because there's been that association between veganism and, and highly processed food in the media. And so there's all those kind of practical concerns around environment around health around the economy, and around, you know, work and just work. So it was about saying, Well, how do we help people visualise that? How do we how do we make people see that actually, just maybe, maybe there's a, there's a practical route to this, and these problems aren't, you know, we can actually overcome these problems with a little bit of thinking, and with some sort of carefully, and carefully thought through interventions. So yeah, it was about sitting around the table. And, and listening to people from across the food system. People that agreed with those people that didn't agree with us, people that were kind of somewhere somewhere between the two. Yeah, kind of really listened to those concerns, and looking at all the latest research and about and thinking in, in food. And, yeah, really kind of saying, well, this is our vision, this is this is what it would look like and responding to those concerns through that through a positive vision for the food system. And also laying out a practical way of getting there through legislation. But yeah, obviously, that has been we have been thinking about that for a while. And it was it was quite a long time ago now that we we actually engage with Alex initially to with Alex Lockwood, the author of the poor. So Dr. Alex Lockwood, from the University of Sunderland. And he was the lead author on the report and we engaged with him a long time ago. But yeah, obviously the complexity of those issues, you know, it took a long time to think through. And, yeah, I think now we've got something which is a kind of Central document, if you like in a central piece of work that we can use to engage with people from across the food system, and demonstrate that we've kind of thought about these things in depth and that we're kind of Yeah, ready to engage with with their concerns as well.

Jim Moore 19:56

I think is incredible way to approach things and unclearly the right one and so needed in this, you know, the sort of divided times of reaching out, you know, across across the divide if you like. And and, and speaking to people within whether it be the farming community in, in politicians, etc. People will like to say who who often disagree? What was that? Was that always kind of baked in from the very beginning? Was that something you wanted to do? And was there a particular kind of shortlist of people that you wanted to get to? Or was it more of a come one? Come on, you know, we want to get as many people around the table as possible.

Tim Thorpe 20:35

Yeah, well, this is something that we kind of Alex kind of developed I guess, as a as a research methodology. But something we wanted to do from the start to, you know, we wanted a way of, of getting around the table and listening to people that we hadn't been hearing from in detail, up until that point, and getting all their ideas together. So yeah, there was a lot of discussion around or how, how broad is this exercise? You know, how, how, and you know, how to make decisions? How useful is it to speak to people who already kind of vitriolic Lee and then kind of deeply opposed to AI sort of thing. So there was a kind of practical decision made around? Well, actually. So what well, we did speak to people who don't agree, when we speak, we spoke to animal farmers, we spoke to Welsh, sheep farmers, and we spoke to, you know, mixed farmers and dairy farmers. We didn't go and speak to those people who just really couldn't see any value in what we're saying and didn't really understand where we're coming from at all. So we're speaking to the kind of almost a progressive elements, if you like, of those groups to understand where might the opportunities be to, to accommodate some of their concerns within a vegan philosophy? So yeah, that's kind of how we made that decision is and actually Alex, I heard Alex say something really interesting about that, which was like, if, if you if we agree with you, 80%, then we, you know, then we want to work with you and, you know, in a very meaningful way, in a very proactive way. So I think yeah, that's that was a that's a good way to think about it.

Jim Moore 22:25

I'm interested in you know, there being this. I think sometimes in the sort of, quote unquote vegan community there can be a sense of and I think it's a misplaced one in the main that farmers have the kind of the enemy and you know, I remember a conversation I had with a different Alex Lockwood, actually the director A while back, and he was talking about Jane catchier world who are know that the vegan society kind of helped out in sort of veganizing their farm and so and it was was kind of fascinating and always quite, you know, relatively new into the podcast at that point. And and I don't know why it hadn't struck me before. It's like we're in a farming is still integral to any system that you have in place any food based system, whether it's, you know, animals at the centre of it, which obviously we want to avoid, or as plants, which I know, sounds, you know, sounds obvious to us now. But at the time coming from that sort of omnivorous base at the beginning, in building my knowledge, it was it was sort of new news. And I'm just interested in you know, you mentioned this progressive kind of farmers who perhaps are dairy farmers, but have this thought process it was there a sense, you know, in the conversations with them, that they understood there was limited mileage in what they were doing, you know, from a from a resource point of view and so on and so forth. And that their reason was, you know, this is something I've built for for many many years decades etc and switching it is not something that I can can readily do was that generally the kind of concern and and indeed the, you know, the thing that they'd spotted for their the you know, the reason for them being progressive and even wanting to have a conversation with you, was it because they saw there was a bit of writing on the wall if you like.

Tim Thorpe 24:04

And, yes, to, to an extent I think there was, I think more than overwhelming reason was more that they, their their vision for the food system might have been more one of our kind of avoiding intensive farming, you know, they agreed what degree this maybe to the extent that they could see a reduction, significant reduction in the consumption of animal products, you know, maybe an 80% reduction, maybe a 90% reduction, but they they felt that modern animal agriculture was something that really kind of worried them and kind of was was dead against their ethics. And they were quite difficult conversations to have because but at the same time, some of them might have been and some of them did open up and say, you know, but I do feel uncomfortable about you know, sending my animals to slaughter or You know, those sorts of things and, and I think, you know, they have their own ethics and they all have their own individual ethics and way of looking at it, I think one of the farmers we engaged with his daughter was vegan. So that was obviously something that, you know, was a conversation that they'd had to navigate within their household and within, you know, and and so that obviously opened his mind, you know, and though he wasn't convinced, you know about about veganism, he was he, you know, he got where, where we're coming from. And I think the, I think one of the one of the key things that we had to do throughout the reporting that Alex did really well in the interviews was work about work out what it was about their, about their business, and about the way their connection with the land, and about their connection to what they did as a, you know, they're kind of part of their identity. What was it about that that was really a value of value? And? And was there a way to capture that in a, in a plant peace system in an appealing way to those and see why, well, what's actually what connects you to this? And what what gives you a source of value and identity as a as a farmer? And, you know, how can we capture that in our vision for a food system? Because that's really important. If we don't sketch that out, and and, and make that appealing, and kind of, you know, explain how that is an appealing vision for for food production, then yeah, there's going to be much more inclined people are going to be much more inclined to just tie themselves to old systems out of fear, or most of what would be replacing it.

Jim Moore 26:52

Yeah, absolutely. From your perspective, thinking about the, you know, what, what's kind of the various groups that need to get on board for something like this to be adopted as serious kind of policy in a way to move forward. And I forgive me for being reductive here, but you got sort of, you know, the farmers on one side, politicians, the general public and the hearts and minds there? Which group? Is it all three, that that need to be kind of, you know, ready to take this change on for this to happen? Or do you think, the work of the vegan society, the vegan community, quote, unquote, as a wider whole, the work needs to be done more with the general public? Because politicians will act off the back of that, you know, what, where's your mind at in terms of, you know, policy, farming the public in terms of where our focus should lie?

Tim Thorpe 27:53

Yeah, that's a really, really tough question, actually. And my, my answer is gonna be a bit of a cop out, but in a way, because the way I view it is that you need all of these, these elements are kind of respond to each other, they're, they're kind of they have a reflexive relationship. So yes, you politicians aren't going to, I'm going to move on, you know, legislating, to help enable that change to plant based, unless they see it as a large constituency of people who are already driven enough and believe that too, big enough extent that they've made changes in their, their personal life. And, likewise, food manufacturers and food producers aren't going to respond to that unless they've got signals from from people saying that that's what they want. But at the same time, we, we don't make off we know we're, the people who buy food menu, and everybody else food users, if you like, we don't we make those choices in our environment, we don't make those choices in a vacuum. So we make those choices based on what food we have access to what food is marketed to us what the cost of that food is, the information we have about the you know, the healthy that food is, and things like that, and also a lot of other cultural factors that kind of, you know, restrain or inform those choices. So you need all those things. And I think even you know, companies, you know, kind of entrepreneurs that bring new food manufacturing technologies to market and being companies that actually make vegan food really nice and appealing and marketing it to people and making it available to people. Those people really make a difference, you know, in what, in what choices we make and how many of us are vegan, and likewise, go policy, it can do things that are really important, like affect the price of different foods. You know, the trade agreements, our subsidies, agricultural subsidies, various, you know, government schemes, they can affect the price and accessibility and availability of food. And even where it's advertised what food we see when we're out and about, and kind of, you know, what's pushed pushed onto us if you like. So the approach that we take the vegan society is that we try and work on all of those things, we identify where where the barriers are, and where the opportunities are, and then, and then run a campaign on those. So might be good time to just give you a couple of examples of those sort of campaigns, actually. So some couple of recent examples are vegan thriving campaign, and that, in the kind of latest iteration of that campaign, we've been getting information into GP surgeries, and also into, you know, on online as well and, and into various other places that people can access it out and about, including kind of health health messages, basically, and also, you know, recipes and things like that. And that's targeting That's very kind of carefully targeted, people who might want to go vegan, but have concerns over the health element of it, or might want to take more control over their diet and could see a healthy vegan diet as an opportunity to do that. So yeah, so we have that, but we also have our future normal campaign. And that's really getting people to think about their relationship with with animals, and reflect on that relationship, again, with some some online resources and some advertising that people can see when they're out and about. We've also got a play out for the planet campaign. That's a bit like the veganuary challenge, but it's a seven days a shorter seven day challenge. And it's really heavily focused on people who are concerned about the environment concern about climate change. So that's going to be really important campaign for us in the run up to the cop 26 conference. So the climate conference has been held in in Glasgow in November of this year. So yeah, that's a kind of a few examples of the kind of the the range of areas you work and work on. Yeah, like I say, we tackle all of those things, all of those kind of key areas, rather than just focusing on just policy or focusing on just kind of consumer behaviour.

Jim Moore 32:42

Just thinking about some of those, because they're all fantastic campaigns and thinking about like, you know, the future normal, and so on and so forth. And, you know, I've seen that campaign, I think it is excellent, and, you know, wonderful, you kind of put together feels very relevant to how some people might be feeling right now, you know, through through the kind of this enforced period of reflection and so on. Are you seeing much traction from sort of the wider kind of omnivorous population who have gone through some kind of moment of reflection and an alternative to the vegan society for that first port of call from, you know, from an information standpoint, off the back of some of these campaigns? Are they does it feel like there's they're gaining some momentum? Yeah,

Tim Thorpe 33:30

I mean, it does feel like that, it's, it's obviously hard to tell, yeah, you know, without kind of really, really need to look in there and a long term to see if these things are working, but it does feel like that, you know, we do get engagement with these campaigns. And we can, you know, we can track that engagement. And so we know people are hitting their website and, and, you know, engaging with the kind of resources that we've got. And we Yeah, we getting inquiries from New vegans as well coming in, and the society looking for information and advice or saying they've seen a campaign and they like it, or they've seen a campaign, they don't like it. So yeah, I think we are there is that conversation going on with with omnivores, and it's definitely kind of vegan adjacent people, if you like the work, we're talking to a lot of the time when it comes to individual behaviour change, who are nearly there, but just just need a little, you know, a kind of another conversation about it or something just to address find those final worries they might have. But yeah, I mean, one thing we do, once we do track is we do a survey every few years called how many vegans and that's basically the most the most reliable data that is collected in the UK about how many vegans there actually are and looks at those trends. We haven't been able to do that for a while because of the way the methodology that we use for that hasn't been possible. All throughout COVID. And we wanted to keep that consistent kind of methodology. So it was, could really be easily compared to previous years. But the last time we did that, in, we released the data in early 2019. It was around 600,000, vegans in the UK. And that was a significant increase from 2014, where it was 150, approximately 150,000. So I think there's good reasons to believe that trend has continued and that we, you know, we could be over a million vegans in the UK now. But, you know, we're not going to know until we get the data in, but, you know, if it's followed that trend, and certainly the vegan movement and the vegan kind of ethic, and philosophy is taking hold and is increasing year on year. And, uh, you know, we are contributing that to that as a as an organisation.

Jim Moore 36:00

thing. Absolutely. I mean, whether it's the campaigns that you say, the work with the policies, and there's this new report, I think, you know, comes at it from a, from an incredible angle, which I think Well, I think the phrase Alex used was, you know, having having, having something shovel ready for when and if a government kind of needs it, it's there, here it is. And on that note, actually, I just wanted to ask a question and get your, your sort of thought on this. Because, you know, I see, and obviously, you know, as somebody in the sort of Eton community, I'm kind of always conscious of, you know, you feel like you're in a bit of an echo chamber sometimes and you know, I wonder whether I feel like things are gathering faster paced than perhaps they are, just because I'm submerged in, in sort of vegan media, but you know, I do see like the mainstream adverts I think there's one narrated by Stephen Fry for Sainsbury's recently that was that was talking about you know, eating a more plant based life, you know, diet and so on so forth. And you know, like, like you say, I think there has been a bit of a moment of I think through this moment of reflection I think people are turning those vegan adjacent folks certainly people I know anecdotally who are who are asking some of those questions and wanting to reach out to the vegan society and so on so forth. You mentioned something a while back though that I wanted to pick up on Rand politicians which was you know, thinking about where they sometimes you know, they have a part to play and as well as companies in kind of marketing or laying an idea take hold you know, whether it be from a government point point of view it might be how expensive or expensive you know, a taxation system might make food and so on so forth. These kind of things, they all have this influence and the relationships kind of symbiotic. I'm interested in whether you see any politicians who are kind of looking for almost ways to help convince the the general public from a viewpoint of you know, might be they're, they're they're concerned with climate change it might be they're concerned with food security, you know, even even from a Brexit standpoint, you know, is it that that there's a concern over actually this food food system that you're proposing would be much better off for us because you know, it gives us control sovereignty over our kind of our food production we're not you know, using two and a half times the land of the UK to make the food that we need etc. are you seeing any any politicians kind of thinking that way and trying to think of ways to help the public along

Tim Thorpe 38:36

I think well, there are certainly a few politicians who are vegan themselves and who who really passionately believe that that's the kind of system we need if this becomes difficult when it gets to a kind of party political level I think in the yeah they're they're very they're very restrained and obviously within our kind of primarily two party system they're very restrained by the party line in terms of what they can say that will fall outside of that. But yeah, that there certainly is politicians who who are vegan and politicians who are maybe not quite vegan but but but would see that that's where the our food system is heading for all those reasons are outlined for climate reasons or food security reasons. So yeah, I mean, we are having those conversations, we actually have an all party parliamentary group and a PPG. So this is a group of MPs who and that's for veganism and vegetarianism is a group of vegan and vegetarian MPs. Who, yeah, well, we just discussed these issues as a group and we have guest speakers to come and talk about health and environment. That was something that Alex actually gave a talk to, to speak to MPs about the planting value. And the food system report. So, so yeah, politicians are definitely interested. And I think a really important thing from politicians, as well as the policies themselves, that can actually facilitate change is confidence in that in that direction. So I think we had kwasi kwarteng, who think is the business secretary at the moment is he said, the US kind of climate convention, the vegans were making a positive contribution to, you know, in their response to climate change. And, you know, messages like that are actually really important, because they send they send a message to the country send a message to companies, and they send a message to the public, actually, this isn't a fringe idea, this is something that can help can help towards meeting our kind of national international obligations. But yeah, at the moment, we haven't got much kind of policy, or follow through on that. And that's a shame, because we've had, you know, most recently, the National Food strategy which announced, which recommends a 30% reduction in the consumption of animal products. Before that. Earlier in the year, we had the committee on climate change, and its six carbon budget, that also recommended significant reductions in animal products. And that was the one recommendation from the Committee of climate change committee on climate change that the government explicitly ignored. So they kind of said, we are going to adopt all of this, but not quite all of it. And they, they dropped that bit in particular. So this, there's obviously still a taboo around the idea. But I think that's a taboo that is, is, is changing very quickly. And I think and I hope this might be wishful thinking, but I, I feel that in a few years, perhaps, you know, three years, five years, it will be something that politicians can talk openly about and, and talk openly about the benefits that, you know, without too much fear of kind of backlash?

Jim Moore 42:17

Yeah, I definitely feels like there is a there'll be a slow, but a sea change. Now, there are things there are things, just the the link, the climate change veganism link, you hear more and more and more in in, in places that I think even four or five years ago, you wouldn't have heard those two ever being linked, you know, you talked about your experience in university, you're now hearing it on, you know, morning television, you know, that, that that kind of link? So I'm sort of cautiously optimistic. I think my biggest concern, I guess, is the time, you know, and how long these things take. And I think Alex said something, which is probably true, but but but also kind of scary that, that, you know, it might not it might take a significant climate event of some description to really get people to make that link, you know, and certainly get governments into that place. I hope not. And I think the kind of the report that you put together here with Alex, the, the work you're doing around policy, and so on, I think, let's hope we can get people there without that. But, you know, when we think about the different angles, that that, you know, can capture hearts and minds of omnivorous spoken, you know, we obviously, you know, as vegans for, for a while we the old adage of, you know, you come for the health and stay for the animals or, you know, those kind of things. I think that probably probably more focused on on kind of animal welfare and so on. But do you think that climate change is probably the the the key area if you're thinking about this strategically from our hearts and minds point of view with the general population?

Tim Thorpe 44:15

Yeah, I think well, I definitely think climate change is the key area when it comes to speaking to institutions and speaking to governments and government bodies about veganism, because that's an area where they squarely have a responsibility and everyone, then everyone expects them to act on climate change, you know, that there's an overwhelming majority of the public feel. And this is borne out by by polling data that the government has a responsibility to, you know, to to act on climate change and bring others in line with a kind of a climate friendly future if you're like a future that avoids climate catastrophe. So to the extent that the organism is a Corp, Part of that then you know we have a read opportunities speaking with those institutions but it's usually when we look at kind of data in terms of individual decision making and individual behaviour change it usually comes to kind of close third behind those other two factors so behind animal rights or or you know, compassion and a welfare and then health and I think the health one's interesting because it's really about people I think, want to take control of, of their diets and what he and I think doing that through veganism, people often, you know, find that find a healthy diet by by kind of using veganism to take a little bit of control and have a little bit more active thought over over what they're putting in their bodies. But yeah, it is an interesting one. And I find that puzzling because that for me was a really important factor and that's what I spend a lot of my time thinking about as well as in terms of my role the society and those kind of climate and ecological questions, which are really really pressing But yeah, I think I think for most vegans these days it is a combination of of the three and having that personal motivation when you know that relationship with animals that they can this this really visceral that idea of you know, concern about what they put in their body and health and also having that kind of global kind of social motivation around climate and ecological emergency is I think a really powerful combination so yeah, usually usually comes third when we when we pull it but that's what people say and and what people say isn't always you know, actually you know, really what motivated them and I know we all we all kind of tell a story Don't we? And we think that things happen in a certain way in my in my story earlier to you talking about the caterpillar I don't know if that's something that I just reflect on and and remember now and and feel was important, or whether it was important at the time but yeah,

Jim Moore 47:23

yeah, like they say you can only join the dots looking backwards is that I think yeah, I think you're right we're we're sort of pan forming creatures, aren't we? We're, we're pretty good at creating a narrative. So yeah, it's interesting to see it I'd love to I mean, not that they would ever release it but I'd love to see the light Netflix data on the various documentaries and which ones kind of land lamb the most and I suppose the next step is, you know, I've spoken to a lot of people you probably have to watch cowspiracy or see spirits in sort of from all that, that's bad and they're not doing anything about it. And I sort of find that doubly baffling. But you know, people are interesting creatures.

Tim Thorpe 48:07

Yeah, absolutely. And social creatures as well. I think I think the thing about those documentaries you know, documentaries sell effective gang people talking about veganism, but I think a lot of it depends, you know, they might watch it and then speak to their friends about it and and a lot of what happens afterwards really depends. Depends what you know, what, how it landed, so you know, if they've their friends that I watched it to it, it really, really affected me, and then they have a really positive conversation about that. And then it can lead them to Venus. And if I say, you know, if they they start a conversation with their friends about it, and they said, Oh, you didn't listen to that, you know, vegan propaganda disease and you know, then they have a very different reaction. So I think, yeah, that thing about having having vegan family members and vegan friends that you know, and you like, and you can talk openly to that, you know, that really affects people as well as

Jim Moore 49:00

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Case in point I remember talking to somebody about cowspiracy and they talk talk to me about how it had been debunked on the Joe Rogan podcast and I thought oh, okay, right. Tried to direct them back to the sources of where Kaspersky who got their information the Oxford University report etc But Joe Rogan was was better research

Tim Thorpe 49:25

very, very powerful influence so this is the power of podcasts So

Jim Moore 49:30

yeah, I haven't got his audience just yet. But you know, hopefully one day we can sort of be the vegan Joe Rogan. Slightly less All right, but there you go. I wanted to ask question on food, we talked about the the food being, you know, the, the health benefits and so on. I remember when, probably the, after I'd done some because I went my journey was going through cowspiracy or watch cowspiracy That day, it was like, right I need Well, first of all, actually, I checked out the rate the sources of information on their website. So I thought, well, this can't all be true. And then once I'd seen enough, you know, UN report, Oxford University that was kind of like, Where have I, where has this information been hiding and made the made the switch there? And then, but probably the third or fourth website I went to, after I'd done that research was the vegan sites, because, you know, you then think, right, I need to figure out, how do I do this? You know, from the, from the health standpoint, am I going to keel over and die within the next two or three weeks, you know, these kind of the natural concerns, because all the things that have been ingrained in us since we were since we were children? And, you know, I think one of the things that's been apparent to me over the just the last four and a bit years, you know, the choice has become, you know, abundant, you mentioned that there's this, this link that's being made, and I don't think it's necessarily an incorrect one. In some cases, where people's view of veganism is processed food, I don't think it needs to be but I think that that's the view because we're seeing these, you know, there's many vegan news sources on social media that, that talk about progress in terms of whether Nestle have released a kick cat and you know, these kinds of things. And there's something about it sort of looks at me a little bit that there may be a cause for concern, if you like, at least a dialling up required of the message around how to how to eat healthily, you know, whether it's vegan or not. But ideally, again, from the point of view that if if we don't address that, we could end up losing people once they come in, because they think the only way to do this is by eating processed cheese and processed meat, like doing exactly what they were doing before. Do you see that as kind of a valid concern and something we need to make sure that we do address and dial up that volume in the right way?

Tim Thorpe 52:05

Yeah, I do. I do think it's a valid concern. And and that's, that's exactly why we do put resources into so we've got a team of two dieticians now. And, you know, we focus on you know, things like the need for, for most people to supplement and supplement, you know, b 12. And in lokomotiva, and is now

Jim Moore 52:32

page 191. No less Yeah, we do is fetch one one. I personally, personally agree.

Tim Thorpe 52:39

Yeah. Other multivitamins are available. But we selvedge one, and yeah, so that is a valid concern, I think. And as you say, if you know, if we do find that there's a movement of people who are drawn to veganism, but don't necessarily see, take much care in their diet and overall diets, or too much interest in those nutritional elements of it, then yeah, we are going to find a lot of people who aren't getting as much out of those diets aren't finding them to be fulfilling for them and their health and well being. And ultimately, it's going to affect the growth of the movement. So I think, yeah, at the moment, if you look at kind of, you know, there's population studies that look at the health vegans or health outcomes of vegans compared to other groups with different diets, you know, we perform pretty well we're we're fairly healthy bunch. Compared to other other kind of dietary groups on this, there's some well known obviously, benefits of at least not overeating, animal products, the vegans benefit from so there is a real opportunity there, and we need to, in order to be able to kind of maintain that message to say, look, you can really thrive on a vegan diet and, and the data and the evidence bears that out. We need we need most vegans to to have some awareness of nutrition and to be in those those kind of whole foods diet. So So yeah, I mean, we promote whole food diets, primarily, obviously, pulses are incredibly important. So your lentils, your beans, your peas. And actually, they match up really nicely with some of the best performing diets in terms of environment. So these whole food diets with lots of seasonal vegetables and pulses are some of the most sustainable diets that you can get as well. So and those things match it really nicely. But yeah, I think there's barriers to that for some people that aren't there. So looking being one of them, having the space and the time and the knowledge to learn how to cook a wide variety of foods from scratch and In a way that you enjoy and that you like so, so it does take a little bit of time and it and it takes some adaptation. So I think, yeah, it is also important just to just to do the bare the kind of basics for vegans, and that's, you know, get some nice easy healthy recipes out there and and encourage people to share them and talk about them. And, and yeah, talk about those things as well. And I think there are there is kind of legislation that can help with that. So obviously, in the National Food strategy, it talks about tax on on high sugar and high fat, highly processed foods. So so that's the kind of thing that could could make vegan products healthier? Because Yeah, after all it is it's about highly processed or not highly processed. And I think there is a variety of, you know, not all kind of manufactured products are high sugar, or high salt or high fat. And some of them are actually relatively simple, relatively simple ingredients. And actually, you know, really pretty good at providing kind of vegan protein. So I don't want to kind of preach to the vegans out there who are thinking was that mean, I can't have a vegan sausage sandwich, or whatever. No, absolutely not. You know, that's an important part of of my diet as well. And of, of all of our diets. But But yeah, it's about having that balance, isn't it and making sure people have got the kind of opportunities and knowledge to to have those kind of whole foods as well.

Jim Moore 56:31

sage advice, Tim, as I would have expected, where would folks is time time is, is against us? I've taken up enough of your time, it's been great chatting with you. But where would folks go to first of all, read the planting value in our food system report. And secondly, check out some of the other campaigns that you mentioned earlier.

Tim Thorpe 56:51

Yes, so how our website just type in the vegan site at Google the vegan society and hit our website. And you can go to the campaign's tab on our website or campaigns hub where we've got all the campaigns there and people can can read a bit more about them explore them. We've also got a microsite for the for the planting value report, and that's planting value in food.org. So they can go directly there to find that out. But you can also access that from our main website as well. So yeah, planting value in food doctor to check out the the food systems report and yeah Vinci calm to, to go on our main site and look at those recipes and check out the campaign's

Jim Moore 57:38

100% that microsite is a it was a real education. I know for me, like I thought that report was fantastic. And it was a great resource to help you navigate it in in sort of simple terms. And you could get deeper and deeper as you as you wanted to. So appreciate that. appreciate the work. I think it's incredible.

Tim Thorpe 57:57

Thanks, Jim. Yeah, and yeah, it's a little animation on there as well that people can watch and you can download the reports from there as well if you want to kind of read them in more depth. But yeah, been real pleasure. And thanks so much for having me on.

Jim Moore 58:09

Thank you, Tim. Appreciate it. It's been so busy.