Veganuary with Christina Mather, founder of Little Legs Dog Rehoming

Jim Moore 0:20

Hello, my name is Jim, this is my podcast the bloody vegans. You're very welcome to it. Each week I'll be travelling ever deeper into the world of veganism discovering along the way, a multitude of viewpoints from the political and ethical to the practical. I'll be doing this through a series of conversations, each aiming to further illuminate my understanding, and hopefully yours of all things. Plant centric, and this week is no different. As I said last week, we will be returning to normal service back to the interview format this week. And indeed we are, I am delighted to say, this week, we're going to be joined by Christina Mathur, the founder of the family run dog re homing sanctuary, little legs, dog re homing based up in Southport, the north of England near Liverpool, so you can get your bearings, we're going to be chatting about the founding of that amazing organisation. But we're also going to be talking about Christina's personal journey into the world of veganism, as always what we do in these, these interview format podcasts. And Christina, as a as a very apt very pertinent story to tell, that really does centre around began with, of course, the time of year that we're in, but also the organisation itself and the support and community that it gave her. So we're going to be chatting about that. Before we do though, let's let's do the usual bit of admin,

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Christina Mather 4:13

So I was sort of a vegetarian or my family were vegetarian growing up, we didn't eat meat, we had loads of rescue animals from geese to horses, guinea pigs, everything in between. And we just always refer to ourselves as a family full of animal lovers. So in like the 80s and the 90s I don't think I'd ever even heard the term being vegan, but you could be veggie or vegetarian. So we were all vegetarian.

And that's just all I ever knew. I don't really have any recollections of eating meats. I have some recollections of going to kids parties and people rolling their eyes and being like, oh, what we're gonna feed you, but I've never known any different so lifelong vegetarian. And I guess I only started questioning it around about five or six years ago because Being vegetarian up until then kind of always felt enough. So yeah, all that I'm quite proud really to say that I'm from a lifelong family of people that don't eat meat.

Jim Moore 5:08

You mentioned that, you know, the school parties and so on. It's kind of interesting to me that so back in the 80s and 90s, I was of a similar similar era. It was, but no vegetarian, I must say, Well, growing up. What did you find that you mentioned that kids would question it a little bit, that back then even just being vegetarian was kind of like marked out as different?

Christina Mather 5:32

Yeah, it was difficult, but I didn't really find that the children with a problem it was I always remember it was children's parents. So we're still at this one really clear recollection, I won't mention any names. But I remember being a girl in my classes birthday party. And literally this mom, they're saying, oh, like vegetarian, you know what, we're going to feed you and looking at all these like ham sandwiches and sausage rolls. And I've vaguely remembered just eating like bread and butter. Because there was nothing else that equity. So I don't ever remember kids being unkind. I remember it more being the parents.

Jim Moore 6:07

Yeah, yes. It's interesting. Actually, I think it was probably the case for many vegans. Now, actually, it's not that the kids are pretty open, you know, especially when they're quite young. But but their parents is that it's often the challenge. I'm finding that myself anyway, as a dad of a three year old.

Christina Mather 6:23

I think children are all born with compassion. So they kind of just, I don't know, I don't really feel like the there's no stigma with them. You know, if you say I don't eat meat, because a lot of animals, I think they just accept it. Whereas I think it's grown ups and they're a little bit more cynical on they are a little bit more negative about anything that doesn't fit in with their ideas of what is normal, or you know, or within their, their worlds. So if they don't know about it, or they don't think about it, then I don't know, people can be a little bit negative currently.

Jim Moore 6:54

Absolutely, yeah. What got you, we'll get you questioning then sort of six years ago.

Christina Mather 7:00

And I at that point, I was vegetarian and I would still buy leather shoes, I would have leather bags, I didn't really think further than not eating meat. And I still remember now I, my friend Julia was tattooing me. And she'd recently gone vegan. And we were talking about, we're talking about good vibes and karma and doing the right thing. And she just said, you know, I've recently gone vegan. And she, she referred to me still remember the term she used like, enlightenment, she said, I've felt like I've gone through this period of spiritual enlightenment. And it's partly come from doing the right thing and becoming vegan. And it really, like sat with me. And it was December. Remember, it was December, and I thought about it for about two weeks. And she said, I watched earthlings go and watch Earthlings. And I thought, yeah, you know, I went. And it must have been about two weeks later, I was on a break in work. And I thought, You know what, I'll just I'll google Earthlings. And all that came up with the trailer. And it was about two minutes long. And I remember literally sitting there with my phone, like, Oh, my God, and then tears like streaming down my face. And I thought, What even is this like I had, it sounds so naive as a grown woman to not have any idea about eggs and dairy. I already knew about kind of animal testing. That was something that was on my radar, and circuses and zoos, so I never would have gone to those. But it was I still remember it was it was eggs, and it was dairy. And a watch that and I felt sick to the pit of my stomach. I felt I felt terrible, because I genuinely had no idea. And I literally just said at that point, I was like, I'm vegan now. And I had no idea what I was doing. I literally didn't have a clue. And I think I Googled going vegan, and Veganuary came up. So I quickly put my email address in and I was like, like, that's it. I'm vegan. And I didn't have a clue what I was doing. But it's just something a switch went in my brain and I thought that is x there is no, there's no going back. There's no half measures of being vegetarian anymore. I've got to I've got to do this. So it was quite quick for me. And there was no transitional period, there was no eat nothing in my fridge before I made the change. There was no setting a date. It was literally there in that.

Jim Moore 9:17

What was that? That feeling? You know, you said that sickness in the pit of your stomach was it? Was it a kind of a deception, almost like I thought that I was doing everything I needed to do like, where did that come from?

Christina Mather 9:30

Yeah, I think I think I was embarrassed genuinely, as an animal lover who's been around animals my whole life. I mean, we had horses growing up, and we used to keep them on a pig farm. And I still remember the noises on certain days, you know, when they would come and they would take the pigs off for slaughter as a really young child. So I kind of understood meat, but I don't think I understood. I feel like there's this this this big method known as this big coffee. about how chickens are going to lay eggs, whether we eat them or not. And if we don't all go to waste, and cows are going to have milk, whether we drink it or not. And, you know, I've even heard a few adults say to children, well, cows are going to explode if we don't drink their milk. And I've never, ever connected the dots that cows make milk because their mothers not because they're cows, and all of a sudden, all these little things slotted into place. And I felt really embarrassed because I think I'm quite open minded and quite, quite smart. And all of a sudden, I thought, how on earth have I been duped for this long in my life, and I felt felt foolish felt embarrassed.

Jim Moore 10:41

She do you think that that is interesting, you use that word. And I totally relate, actually, that that feeling of embarrassment. You know, for me, I came at it from an environmental standpoint first, and then the sort of the animal welfare came later. You know, people come in from different angles, as I say, you know, to come to the environment, come for the health and stay for the animals. And, you know, for me, it was environmental. And I remember having the same feeling of, I thought I was doing my bit, I thought I was recycling, I thought I was doing this, that and the other. And that embarrassment was definitely very real. Do you think that for that almost, if people could, if there was an openness to that feeling that it's okay to feel embarrassed if perhaps we in the in the quote unquote, vegan community where perhaps, you know, sharing those stories, putting our finger on it and saying, Yeah, we were embarrassed to, or we felt like this, it would bring more people in. So I wonder if people when they feel that embarrassment, you got two choices, you can kind of like be humble and open and gauge, you know what I was wrong? Or you can double down?

Christina Mather 11:49

Yeah. And I think with me, I am very transparent with it, because I understand that so many people have come to me talking about veganism. And there are quite a lot of people out there who will say, Oh, no, you know, they will paint the paint this picture of themselves that the perfect and I think that's a big barrier to veganism, because people think if I'm not 100% vegan, and I'm not perfect, well, therefore, I can't do it. You know, and I think acknowledging the difficulties and the slip ups and the challenges that you will face, but being open to an almost embracing it, and I'm almost quite proud of my power and my embarrassment, and because, yeah, you know, I'll have that I'll wear that because their normal feelings aren't like, and I went around for years saying, when people said, Why are you vegetarians at all, because I'm such an animal lover. And then the thing, actually, I, I loved pets, that's what I was really saying is I loved the animals that I shared my home with, whereas the other animals that I might not see every day, so cows and sheep and chickens, what was really saying is, you know, I almost disregarded them as being worthy of my love. Waris. Now, um, you know, I'm very clear that, you know, I am an animal lover, and I care for animals, not just pets. And I think that's the difference. But, yeah, I'm at peace now with my embarrassment, because I feel like I've come such a long way on my vegan journey since then.

Jim Moore 13:19

Yeah. Do you think having that experience in that viewpoint has made you subsequently since you know, since becoming vegan and making that transition? Does it made you think differently, maybe approach people who are who aren't yet vegan haven't yet made the transition? differently? Because I asked a question because you know, that that that feeling is not uncommon. Is it the idea of, you know, especially in the UK, we consider ourselves this nation of animal lovers as it as it made you perhaps, approach it slightly differently because I think some people and I probably count myself in this actually, when I went through it probably became a little bit sort of militant, almost a little bit aggressive at the beginning, because I felt like we're everyone should know this now. And once you know the facts, I'll tell you the facts

Christina Mather 14:11

you want to share. Yeah, you want everyone to know, as soon as

Jim Moore 14:15

I've told you the facts, now, you need to switch to as if like that is that is easily done. But your experience is interesting. Has it has it made you perhaps approach with a slightly different perhaps a softer edge?

Christina Mather 14:27

It has now but like you, at first, I was angry, and I went through this angry vegan stage and I was like, oh my goodness, I've seen the light. I've had this awakening. I didn't know and I wanted to tell everyone and I think I scared people off because all of a sudden, I was this preachy, judgmental, angry vegan, who wanted everybody to change overnight. And, you know, my family and my friends and I almost wanted to cut people off, you know, if they weren't open to it. And that probably lasted about six months, you know, and I would share this horrific slaughterhouse footage because I'd seen it. So I'd watched it, so everybody needed to see it. And then gradually, over the last five years, I've I've softened and I've, I've kind of learned really, that there's so many different approaches to getting people on board. And it isn't always shocked tactics. And more often than not, it's that it's the kindness that gets people in. So for a while, my husband and I run a vegan activism chapter in Liverpool. And at first, I was, I was really passionate and and I think I did scare people off. And I think people thought, Oh, my goodness, this is like all or nothing, and I'm going to go vegan. And all of a sudden, I've got to be out on the streets. And I've got to be converting people. And if I'm not that I can't be vegan. Whereas now I've got I think I've mellowed with it a little bit. And I've got this much softer approach where I am kinder, and I will say to people, I know it's hard. Try the speaking cake or comrades of mine, and let me cook your vegan dinner. And, you know, this different inroads that are a much gentler, less judgmental approach, but it's taken me a long time to get here.

Jim Moore 16:14

Do you sometimes this might just be me, I sometimes, because I've been through pretty much carbon copy sounds like the initial kind of like quite aggressive phase, and then sort of figuring out there's different ways to approach this. And often my messaging wasn't landing. So you know, how could I make it land? And I sometimes I now reflect and wonder, why a little too soft? Sometimes Do it? Do I not? You know, don't shy away from it? Do you ever feel that? Is? That just me?

Christina Mather 16:45

No, I do. And sometimes I question. Not my veganism but a question, am I am I working my vegan magic on people the way that I used to because it was easy before because I would have people reaching out on social media. So you spoke to me in Liverpool six months ago, and I've been vegan since then. But trying this softer approach, I think, do I look like a not as passionate or I don't care as much. And that's something as well that I've struggled with. But what I've realised is I am more approachable. More people are coming to me and asking for my advice, because I come across us being a kinder softer person. And I'm going to say that I think my results are rescored. And people that previously would have never considered veganism are now more open to it, because my approach is much more laid back. I have but have done that. And I have questioned if I'm not shouting it from the rooftops. Am I as passionate as what I was, but it's just a different approach, isn't it?

Jim Moore 17:50

Yeah, yeah, I think there are there are loads of different ways. And I'm glad that people still do shout from the rooftops. I guess I kind of am in a sort of way. There's, there's a podcast that's out there. But it's even then it's a relatively conversational approach for the reason that I want. You know, personally, I want people to see that vegans are pretty reasonable folks who were who were trying to go about doing the right thing and trying to cause as little harm as possible, you know. But yeah, I do quite I do question myself sometimes think, can I do more? Could it be louder? Do I need it sometimes? Do people just need that shock? You know, so it's interesting to hear in that space sometimes, too. I'd love to turn to Veganuary. If that's alright, because it was obviously it was it, it was a jump off point for you. It sounds like you were pretty kind of committed going into it. I think for many people they probably go into began MRI with with a much more, less, try it for a month and see how we go, you'd obviously had this longer history of, of, you know, being a big supporter of animal welfare, and so on and so forth. And just having this epiphany that veganism was a step further than you perhaps been before. But it'd be it'd be good to understand, like, you know, what, why did you particularly considering you were quite made up? Why did you particularly get on board with Veganuary? And what kind of benefits do you think it's, it's hard for you in that initial that initial month?

Christina Mather 19:18

I think initially for me, I only knew one vegan person. So I was a little bit like, Who do I go to for advice and thought my friends gonna be secondly, if I'm constantly messaging to say, what, what do I do with this, like, I want to make a birthday cake what to use. So my initial thought was, I need some vegan friends, and even if they were just via Facebook or via social media or like a support, so that was my first thing. Then there was the recipes obviously and helped. And I think it was that sense of being accountable. So whilst I was very sure I was going to do it. I thought I'm one of these people where if I sign off and I get an email every die. It's something keeping me on track. And it's something reminded me every day. So I don't know how I would have fared if I'd have gone on my own. But I am so passionate about Veganuary. And the support I've had since then, and the community and the people I've met through Veganuary has been, it's been amazing. And they are my go to all year round. So I think people think obviously, about the January, you only do it in January, but I send people to be January in the middle of summer. And I say, you know, you can sign up whenever you want. And I think that's something that people don't realise. I think they think they have to wait until the first of January. And, you know, I don't think we realised that, you know, they can help them all year round. So I think it was that little sense of community really, and, and having some for you do some vegan friends, even if they weren't in real life to support me.

Jim Moore 20:49

Yeah, 100% Yeah, I definitely relay I went through a couple of years of not having any, any vegan contacts at all. So you know, I kind of wish I'd started through that route. I didn't, but I kind of wish I did now, you know, is this community, I'd love to get your view on something, because I've had this conversation a couple of times with some folks who are quite deep in the in the sort of, quote unquote, vegan community about V January, and is almost a bit of a, I want to say a backlash. But there's some concerns, I think, within the vegan community at the moment of, you know, the, the kind of idea, the premise of it, as great as it is, is being co opted by kind of big companies looking to cash in for the month, and so on and so forth. I'd love to get your perspective on that. And whether you think, actually, we need to kind of as a community, move past that a little bit and make sure that we are still advocating for it because it is this great jump off point.

Christina Mather 21:48

So I think that goes a little bit back to what we were saying before about. You will know yourself in the vegan community, there's almost this hierarchy and being vegan level 100 is like this perfect vegan who is out on the streets every day, and you are you doing activism and you only support small local, fully vegan businesses. And then somewhere a little bit lower down that pecking order is a day to day normal vegan who's trying to do their bit who can't commit to that full on 100% vegan activism lifestyle. And I know I've had a few people say this to me when I was doing outreach in Liverpool, where they would say, we can't advocate for anything less than 100% perfect vegan from the get go. No baby steps No. Vegetarian first no trying it for a month, no meat free days. That's all out. And I understand why people say that. Because once you see the light, why would you want to dip a toe in? But now I think it's come with this mellowness or get a little bit older. Now I do think we'll actually if people are trying vegan options, and they're telling their friends and family and they're purchasing those in the supermarket. Is that better than nothing? Because there are some people that will never make that jump, but they may go 50%? Or would we rather have 50% or nothing at all? So I think as I've mellowed as I've got older, I think it isn't ideal ideal somebody walking into Burger King and buying a vegan burger. But is that better than going in and buying a normal burger? Well, yeah, I'm gonna say it is. So I think I've only seen that viewpoint as I've softened as I've got older. And veganism is big now. And it is a big registered charity. And it does have a lot of followers and a lot of supporters and people will always find the negative in Africa and won't be so they will say, well, someone's going to be making money off the back of that. But we have to get real in that the society that we live in cash is king and money rules, doesn't it? And not very many people do things for nothing. So there has to be incentives for these companies to branch out and make vegan products. And personally for me, I think about five years ago when I went vegan, how much easier my life is now, because of these companies that have created all these new vegan products. You know, I can walk into Tesco and buy a vegan birthday cake off the shelf. I don't have to order one via a vegan Baker and drive an hour to go and pick it or packet, I can walk in and buy one. So for that I'm grateful. So I say this all the time about animal welfare. This path to this perfect vegan world isn't linear as it is there's going to be some bumps in the road and it might not always be perfect, but I'm all for it. If people try and veganism then I'm going to I'm going to applaud them for that because it isn't easy. Is it always.

Jim Moore 24:43

No, absolutely. And I love that point about the path not being linear. I think it's just triggered a thought in me actually that I still feel it's kind of good for people to question. I'm glad that there is argument and debate and is questioning. But I'm also kind of Fall on your side of the fence insofar as I think, you know, if what are we trying to achieve? Are we trying to make an exclusive club? Or are we trying to bring people along a journey and recognise that sometimes these journeys take a little while. And it's not all overnight, you know, for you is overnight, once you'd watched earthlings for me, it was overnight once I watched Cowspiracy. But the amount of people I've spoken to whose journey is more like, you know, 567 plus years, you know, it was an even actually hours as much as I say, we watch this or we watch that. Looking back, there's probably some dots we can join, you know, you've been vegetarian a long time, and so on and so forth. Everybody's journey is long, really, even if the final decision is quick. So yeah, I think you'd make a really valid point there. But I still kind of think there's value in friction in a way as long as we don't kind of cut each other off with it.

Christina Mather 25:55

Yeah. Well, it gets it keeps people talking and debate and it doesn't it and like you say, as long as it doesn't go too far, and we don't fall out over it. It's good to have healthy debate, doesn't it about the pros and cons. And, of course, if I had a choice if I was on a high street, and I was going to buy from an independent vegan place, of course, a lot. But it isn't always that simple as it, you know, so I think it's more about in the situation that you're in at that time, do you make the most conscious decision in that scenario? So if you've got a choice, you make the best choice? So for me, it's about that it's just about conscious thoughts, isn't it into what you're doing?

Jim Moore 26:34

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there's, you know, there's affordability in there as well. You know, one of the big things that people will throw up as a as an issue is affordability. And, you know, whichever way you cut it, if you're you know, sometimes if you're sourcing the the perfect kind of vegan ingredient from somewhere, or, you know, vegan dish or whatever, or vegan products, sometimes there's a premium that comes with that out of the fact that you're supporting a local business and all the rest of it, I'd hate for somebody to be completely turned off it, because they think, Well, I can't afford that, you know that. So therefore, all veganism is out because it's either perfect or nothing, I think I think you make a valid point. If Tescos is your option, as much as you know, might not want to support Tesco, if that's my option, and that's what I can afford. And I've got a family to feed. I'd rather they were doing that. And it was V, you know,

Christina Mather 27:25

of course, and it's just about doing the best that you can with what you've got, isn't it?

Jim Moore 27:31

100% Yeah, yeah, you summed it up nicely. As exactly doing the doing the best that you can, let, can we talk about your activism, because you mentioned that street outreach, you know, you're you're very busy right now in a kind of a different form of activism, which would be great to sort of talk about where that's coming from now. But I'd love to hear your take on a journey from, you know, from turning vegan to to actually wanting to do more out, you know, whether it be outreach whether it was whether it be supporting, you know, dogs as you are now in the way that you are, I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey in that world.

Christina Mather 28:08

Yeah, so when I initially went vegan again, I think it's not a shock to the system. But there was obviously this period of change and I thought that's it you know, vegan, I'm doing enough. And then probably about six months in of people not really listening to me and me sharing footage on Facebook and nobody commenting on it and think, you know, losing friends left, right and centre because I shared some footage from the, you know, inside the slaughterhouse or something. I thought, well, how can I going to talk to people about being vegan, and I saw something come up on again on Facebook about an activism group in Liverpool. And I still remember the day I jumped on a train on my own. It was a weekday, I literally walked over to this group of strangers and I was like, hi, and I'm a vegan, and I'm like, here to join you. And I was part of that chapter four, I think about 18 months. So I started out just as a volunteer, then when different people were leaving the chapter I took on with the running of it. And the only reason that ultimately that chapter closed was because of COVID. So a lot of things were changing. And obviously there was lockdowns and restrictions in place. So we couldn't, we couldn't do it. But you know, I literally went from zero to hero, I was this vegetarian, then it was vegan, then all of a sudden, I found myself wanting this activism street activism group. And I loved it while I was doing it. I absolutely loved it. And people would come back to me and they would say, do you remember you spoke to me and, you know, I've not eaten meat in X amount of weeks or, you know, and or people, you know, like I say, reach out on social media and say, Thank you so much for speaking to me. And I really, really loved it. And I think the only reason that my activism in that way has stopped is once once COVID Start I set up my own not for profits dog rescue from home, and that went from having, like had 12 dogs in the house at the time. And now I've got 26 So You know, again, I feel sometimes I feel guilty and I think I'm not spreading the vegan message. But my activism is taken a different route in the, I take in dogs that are, I've got major behavioural issues, so would have actually got as far as being at the vets to be put to sleep because they have bitten or they don't get along with a family or they can't be rehomes or taken x breeding dogs. So, how I liken it is that you know, a few people have been a bit funny say, Well, why do you work with dog breeders? Or why would you take an x breeding dogs you almost support in that industry. But I liken it to veganism is if I was taken in next battery hens or, you know, retiring cows from the dairy industry. am I supporting that industry? Or am I kind of mopping up the mess afterwards? So yeah, I'm absolutely snowed under at the minute with I think I've had just me from home and my family. We've had 45 dogs through the doors this year, we have rehomes the majority, we still got some of those long term, we found the vets bills, we retrained we rehome if we can, and we just love them all. And they're all in the house with me. And it's absolute chaos.

Jim Moore 31:11

As you had much experience in that kind of world before because that sounds incredibly daunting. You know, I'd love to love to do something. It also sounds incredibly like a daunting to figure out like, you know how to do it and so on. Like, where did you start with.

Christina Mather 31:28

So I was brought up loads of rescue animals. So I laugh about it now. But my mum and dad actually got divorced, because my dad said to my mum when I was a teenager if you bring any more dogs, so that's it, I'm leaving. And my mum did and I think at the point we I'm laughing now But my mum, we you know, we it is like a standard joke in the family. So we had rescue horses that had previously been, we're going to go to slaughter we'd got we've got a goose with one eye, we've got battery hens, we'd got rabbits from pet shops that couldn't be sold because they were ill. So we'd always had loads of rescue animals. And my mom had 12 dogs at the time, when at the start of lockdown. And I think we've got 12 or 13 of our own. And locally, people just kind of knew that if they've got a difficult dog, they could kind of leave it with us. And we would fix it, whether it was that spills. And it was only when I thought, you know, hang on, we're spending all our savings here. And we are finding homes for these dogs. But we're not really getting anything back that it was my husband that said we should get a social media page and just see if anybody wants to donate to that spills. So that's how it started really I set up a Facebook and an Instagram and a website and then the next thing the donations come in, and then the dogs come in. And it was gone from just taking an X breeding dogs to now I've taken dogs from Manchester from London from the midlands of rehome. As far as London it is just don't get me wrong. Like most people who find themselves in rescue, you win get it first. So I didn't really know what I was doing. You know, I've made some mistakes. But I've kind of got a good little routine going now and you know, I've got a good support network and, but it is still hard. Like you know, most nights I average four or five hours sleep because at the minute I've got puppies and that have been sick. So I've been feeding him, you know, late through the night or late at night early in the morning. I've got dogs with me that I've got, like cancer that I won't rehome they'll stay with us for life. You know, we'll look after him for life. I've got some dogs that have been a dozen people and we're literally you know, the vets were ready to put them to sleep because they said that they would never ever be re homed and now they're loving life and living at mine. And I guess I think I'm just one of those people that has been brought with animals I kind of understand them. I like to think that I'm quite in tune with with them and people laugh and they say oh, you're like a dog whisperer. I don't know if it's that I think it's just having a little bit of compassion and you know, being patient and calm and level headed and but yeah, I'm still winging it. It's still early days, we've been set up now, just over a year. But you know, there's I've got a waiting list of dogs ready to come. So it's it's like a full time job and a half, but I love it.

Jim Moore 34:25

I can only imagine. I can only imagine I'm almost reluctant to ask ask this question because I sort of fear what the answer might be but lockdown what lockpick there was there was a big uptick in people getting locked down dogs and so on. I saw so many friends of friends social media posts, bits and pieces of people with you know getting a new a new companion for the for the home. Has that is there. Is there a sort of sad back end of that story and so far as you seeing a lot of dogs Didn't need rehoming off the back of that where people have, you know, perhaps taken on a new companion animal that they couldn't cope with.

Christina Mather 35:08

Yeah. So I think what happens, like you're saying with lockdown is everybody was at home, nobody could go on holiday, everyone was bored. I don't know why it was doing your house up or buying a dog or both. And everybody seemed to be doing it didn't like because they think everyone was bought. So at first I was thinking, we're going to get all the puppies through that people have gotten the chew in the house up or they can't even go back to work and they can't look after them. But what I've actually seen more of is the X breeding dogs who have been bred more than what they ordinarily watered on to cash in on this, this puppy boo. So I've got some French Bulldogs at the minute who have had back to back litters of puppies, and they are exhausted, and they are now almost a waste products of the breeding industry. And they people don't want them. Unfortunately, because they are older. They a lot of dogs, like the French Bulldogs that have been so popular, they have to have cenarion births. So once they've had a few, they can't then give birth naturally anyway. And it's sad to say that if there's not an incentive thrown and then people don't want them. So I've got at the minute, I've got five French bulldogs in my house. And I always said I didn't overly like a love all dogs, but I've got the breeds that I naturally warm to. And I've got five French Bulldogs at the minute and they're ready to leave. And I'm struggling to find homes for them. Because people don't want older dogs. They want the cute puppy that, you know they've picked and bought, literally prices went from maybe 500 to 1000 pound for a puppy to I heard of people paying 5000 pounds during lockdown for a puppy that they never ever would have ordinarily paid for. So an even normal people at home who would have never considered having a litter of puppies, they saw this. So they were mating and breeding their own family pets. You know, so we've had quite a lot of dogs that have come that way where people have had a litter of puppies at home, and then couldn't cope with the puppies or couldn't sell and then because they've, they've missed that window of opportunity for lockdown. So yeah, we've had puppies, I've had older dogs, I've got the dogs that have been bought in lockdown that people have bought, they've got no experience of owning a dog, and they've bitten them and you know, they've loved them, but they've not been able to manage them. So yeah, I've we've got it from every angle. So we've got the cast offs, we've got the puppies, and we've got the behavioural ones, and we've got a houseful. Wow,

Jim Moore 37:42

I hadn't really considered that. But it's when it's completely logical. When you when you say it like that, I think I was imagining people taking on puppies and you know, then then deciding Actually, this isn't for us. But you're absolutely right, that this is an industry where these puppies are being bred and you know, there's a there's a mother at the end who's suffered through that. So he's he has really, really kind of sad to hear. Really,

Christina Mather 38:07

again, it's something that people don't consider, isn't it?

Jim Moore 38:11

No, no, not at all. I must admit, I feel feel awful for not having considered it. But I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. I guess I only thought about the puppy that is no longer wanted and so on. And that kind of thing, which I guess like you said would probably be relatively easier to rehome for folks who and I'll include myself in there. So you know, I don't I don't have a companion animal in the in the home at the moment. For folks who don't, who don't perhaps know how to go about making sure that they you know, get a new companion animal in the home in the right way and so on. What what to look for where do you go? Where do you start?

Christina Mather 38:57

It's hard because most people will pick a dog based on what a pet aesthetically appeals to them are quite shallow, aren't we as human beings and we're all which is why dogs like French bulldogs and flat face dogs, everybody loves them and they see them as a puppy or the so cute. I think the biggest mistake that people make is is picking a dog or or any pet based on what it looks like rather than what they can offer. So even when we rehome dogs, we get a lot of people who message us and say I want a dish and I want a sausage dog because they're so cute. They don't research the breed and what they need and what they can offer and they don't come to us and say this is my lifestyle and this is what I've got. This is my home. This is my garden. This is how active I am. What dog would suit me. I think that's the first thing it's and it's being very honest about what you can offer because you know some people don't want to get out of bed in the morning and you know the one other lion or a weekend or they work long shifts. So they have a lot of holidays and it's you know, some people come to us and say I want to die They'll reel off, you know, their lifestyle. And I joke and say, okay, the breeder, doc you want is a cat's because a dog isn't isn't going to work for you. And I think people think I'm being mean, and and I'm not. But I think people have good intentions, but they're not 100% Honest, I think that's the first thing is to sit down as a family and be completely honest about how much work you want to put in. Because, you know, we have a lot of small dogs, but you know, small dogs obviously, eat less, they need less exercise, if you're going to go out and get a big dog, the chances of things going wrong if you're not going to train that dog and exercise appropriately, are obviously much greater. And those dogs are harder to then rehome. Because it's sad to say, if you've got a tiny little poodle, which I've got at the minute, and he's this big, and he's bitten, he has come to me, but he's so much easier to handle and to deal with because he weighs three kilos, if he was a dog that weighed 60, kilos, and a bit and it's a whole different, different ballgame, but it's any door can be dangerous Carnot, it just depends on the handling and the homes. But I would say that's the first thing to do is not be honest with you know what you've got to offer and how much work you want to put in, be patient, don't go out and buy the first dog, you can just because you want a dog. And it would be to sign up and register with a lot of rescue organisations. So there's this load to contact them and be prepared to wait for the right doc, because anybody you know, anybody can go to a breeder and pay 2000 pound and buy a dog. But if you want to do the right thing, and you want to rehome one, you know, you might have to wait a year for your ideal dog that you know, matches your needs and your family and your lifestyle. So be honest and be patient with what you've got, and be prepared for a 15 year commitment.

Jim Moore 41:49

And in the meantime, whilst you're waiting, just support your local dog rescue.

Christina Mather 41:53

Yeah, do you know if you can't, we have loads of people saying like, what can I do, even if it's just sharing the posts on social media or liking the page or, you know, we did this Christmas, we asked people to donate an extra blanket if they were shopping in Tescos, the little fleece blankets, or an extra pack of dog treats, you know, anything like that it's, you know, a massive help. And if you need to get you fixed the dogs, you know, there's so many rescue organisations that are on social media, and you can go and you can scroll and you can, you know, you can see all these sweet little dogs that have been rehomes. And you know, and are in the new, you know, the new lives. So many dogs now when they are at home from what's the go on to have their own social media pages. And I love it because I log in every day. And I'm like, Well, there's one of my dogs at the beach today, you know, and so you can get your fix in other ways. You know, if you want to see pages and pages of cute dogs, you don't have to go out and buy one from a breeder. You can you can get your fix elsewhere, or come and volunteer and come and walk some of my dogs because it's never entered.

Jim Moore 42:53

Yeah, sounds like you'd do the little bit of a restaurant.

Christina Mather 42:58

A holiday would be great. But there's no chance for that. Not for the foreseeable.

Jim Moore 43:01

No, probably not. Probably not probably not maybe maybe a couple of hours while someone walks walks a couple of your dogs that's

Christina Mather 43:08

as good as it gets. Or a very big camper van. And then they're all coming with me and I'm not sure where we'd go. Would it be somewhere remote on an island?

Jim Moore 43:18

Yeah, yeah. Like I can, I can imagine, can ask about the local community that you that you've got around you. So I'm kind of in I'm always interested in where, where people are at in their communities, whether they've discovered, you know, a thriving vegan community, or it's been a little bit harder to find. It sounds like you initially found one and actually ended up kind of leading one through the, through the outreach programmes and so on. And obviously, you've made quite a name with the dog rescue now as well. But what's it what's the community like locally in terms of veganism? Is it quite a thriving one? Or is it is it quite few and far between

Christina Mather 43:56

where I live, so I'm about 40 minutes outside of Liverpool. It's a relatively small town and it's the population is a lot older. So I always find that the older generation are the ones that are harder to, to to draw and to talk about veganism. But we've got where I'd say I've made my most vegan friends and Southport is we've got an amazing little vegan cafe. I'll say hi, the megafauna in Southport if you follow them on social media, and I've made a lot of friends through them. When they've done events we've been and we've, you know, some of my friends have come from addict on Christmas dinners. We've got another vegan Cafe that's just opened less than six months ago on the outskirts of Southport I love going in there because everyone's vegan that's wild route Cafe as well look at me name dropping all these people wild route and wholesale. You get you get friendly with people and then you follow them on social media and they follow you and you know, I've gone from being Mrs. Little lacks which is my rescue to have an NA And, you know, we had Christmas dinner there and we bought a cheese hamper for Christmas. And they then have people that work there that make jewellery and you follow them and social media is is amazing now isn't it so I found that our little community has grown because you meet people and you find them on on Instagram and you can follow them and and then everybody, everything falls into place doesn't it and you will click so whilst we've only got a small vegan community, it's a really kind want locally and I'm really grateful for it. So even in the village where I live, we have a dog cafe. And they have now got more vegan options on the menu. So whilst they're not a vegan dog cafe, they will do a vegan breakfast. They make vegan dog biscuits made out of peanut butter and bananas for the dogs. And we've got a chocolate shop that now do vegan hot chocolate, and I'd say probably a third of their time may chocolates vegan as well. And, you know, by going in and ordering them and speaking to them and talking about veganism. I feel like it's really blossoming locally. And whenever I go to some of our little independent bars and cafes, and I see something new vegan on the menu, it's exciting. So it's it's blossoming, I would say is growing.

Jim Moore 46:16

That's so great to hear. And it's sort of, I guess, is testament really to the growth of veganism generally that whether it's where you consider a relatively small town, you're not right in the heart of Liverpool, but you've got all these options is is is fantastic. And it's growing like that. It's good to have a couple of cafes as well. It's always like, it's lovely, isn't it when you when you go to a restaurant or a cafe, and you don't have to ask any question,

Christina Mather 46:42

everything speak and it's not like, what's this got in? And, you know, I go in, I've got a nine year old daughter and trying to go somewhere and her saying, Well, can I offer what's in that? What's to just go and say, Pick whatever you want. It's It's refreshing. And to know everybody that works there, you're all on the same page. And it's, it's nice, isn't it? When you meet people, and you know, that kind of ethically and morally are all on the same page, it's a nice feeling isn't it immediately makes me feel relaxed. And you know, I've said to a few people, obviously, there's exceptions. But usually, if people have made that, that leap and become vegan, they tend to be more conscious with their thinking they tend to be obviously not everyone. Kind because, especially if they've done it for animals. And like for me, yes, the health benefits and everything are great. But for me, it's all about animals. But I always say to people, normally, if someone's vegan, they're going to be quite open minded, they're going to be, they're going to be a nice person normally. So that's what, that's what I stick to anyway, because if they've made that compassionate leap, you know, in that they've connected the dots.

Jim Moore 47:56

I think the I mean, there's always the always exceptions, but I think there is something in that, you know, there's a an element of if you've made a decision out of empathy, for, you know, an other species that aren't that aren't your own, I think you probably naturally start to think a little bit deeper about some other things within your life, and you start to question and maybe be a little bit more open and so on. So whilst it's not always true, obviously, I think that I think more often than not, that's been my experience anyway, I don't know if I've just been lucky. But yeah, I'm with you, you tend to have that connection point, which is always nice.

Christina Mather 48:33

It's certainly been mine, I would say that since being vegan, I always used to think that. Not I didn't care about people, but I was always really passionate about animals. But I found that since I have become more open minded and compassionate, and show more empathy towards animals that has had a knock on effect for the, the humans as well. And I am much, much more tolerant. I you know, I'm more open minded. So when people come to me now with things, I don't think I'm judgmental, and I don't know whether that's being vegan or a change in my life that I would have made naturally or getting older or, but I definitely feel like I am more open minded and a more compassionate person per se, for it. And it's a good feeling.

Jim Moore 49:21

Definitely. I think going back to what you said at the beginning, and I've not heard somebody articulate that, that very spot on but that feeling of embarrassment. I think when you felt that and felt like this big seismic kind of shift in your life, that all these kinds of things that you're the foundations of what your thinking was built upon. Were kind of wrong. I think that sort of does something to insofar as like, certainly like makes you then not, perhaps assert that you're right all the time. You know, and that makes you more open to people, generally speaking,

Christina Mather 49:57

is it stupid It sounds stupid want to say it but literally the the change in my life from when I decided to go vegan has been it. I feel like I'm a different person, I look back at my pre vegan life as I don't know, like, like a dream almost because I feel like this is the person that I was meant to be, you know, I? And from here on now I would never there is nothing you know, when people say Would you ever not be vegan, there is nothing that would ever change my views now on veganism, I'm so passionate about it. So literally, now I've made that change, it's like, this is this is me, this is the the person that I was supposed to be. And then before then, I was just kind of on this journey to get here. So, you know, I feel I feel really proud of it. And when I think like five years Kamelot vegan, you know, I'm, I'm proud I'm really proud.

Jim Moore 50:58

Yeah, entrepass sent under percent times getting away. But I do want to just come back to the the Veganuary point, if you were to think back. And maybe you've given some advice to your former self, or maybe some some people who are thinking about going through Veganuary now, is there any kind of things that you would definitely advise people think about reflects upon whether it be very specific diet things or more broader points, you know, it'd be good to just get your your perspective on that initial kind of journey.

Christina Mather 51:28

The first thing I would say is, don't, for me, I was all or nothing. Do your best, don't if you have a bad day, or, you know, you've accidentally picked something up and you think this is fine to eat. And then you look on the back and like way down the ingredients list, it says milk powder, and you've got no idea why milk powders and salt and vinegar, crisps, don't. Don't be hard on yourself and think that's it, you know, I need to stop now. Every day is a new day. So you know, just reset, go again, the next day, don't don't be hard on yourself. So that will be my first one. Prepare, like I really enjoyed going through recipes and finding recipes that were similar to stuff I already ate, and getting the stuff in or even, you know, picking up a few cookbooks that we bought loads of cookbooks at start. And we love trying stuff from scratch. So you know, prepare yourself, if you know that your weakness is chocolate, mine was chocolate, get a few different types of eating chocolate and and keep them in. So you're not likely to fall off the waggon because you've got something that will satisfy that craving. And then be proud of it, you know, tell people that you do in it. So I say to people all the time, don't shy away and don't say, you know, don't go into a restaurant and be feel awkward and say, Oh, have you got a vegan menu, you know, be proud of it and say, I'm trying Veganuary? And, you know, there's nothing I can see on the menu. But can you accommodate me? Or can you kind of speak to the chef because they always will. So yeah, don't, don't be hard on yourself. Don't panic if you make a mistake. Be proud of doing it. And enjoy it. Enjoy trying all the new foods and things that you've not tried before. And like fall in love with cooking again, because we were in a bit of a rut with the recipes that we made and the things that we ate. And then all of a sudden, we found this newfound love for cooking and herbs and spices and using ingredients that we've never considered before. So be excited by it is excited

Jim Moore 53:29

of that. Thanks so much, Christina, it's been amazing. Before I let you go, though, it would be completely remiss of us not to tell people where to go and find the dog rescue and to make sure that they know where to go and support you.

Christina Mather 53:43

Oh, fabulous. I've just seen oh my god, where's an hour gone? It's gone. So, so quickly. So my rescue is called Lift little legs, dogs, it's up to little legs, dogs on Instagram. And it's little legs, dogs at home and on Facebook. And we've got a website so it's www dot little legs. Sorry, little dash legs.org and but if you Google us it will come up but if you adopt don't shop if you want a dog reach out to local rescue, you know, and just get a common followers and come and see the craziness that's in my house of my 26 dogs and and the chaos that is but I'm really grateful for having me. So thank you very much for having me. And, you know, all I would say is like my final parting shot about being vegan is be be proud to be vegan and you know, enjoy it. And thank you being being vegan is great. It's literally an enlightenment and it changes your life.

Jim Moore 54:43

What better place to to end it. Thank you so much, Christina.

Christina Mather 54:47

Thank you, Jim. Thank you so much for having me.

Jim Moore 54:50

No worries. I'll put links to everything that we've talked about in the show notes so folks can come find you. So if you are interested in supporting Christina and the work she's doing just Give the shownotes a click and you'll see the links there thanks so much thank you Jim This is a bloody vegans production